This is the definitive place to discuss everything that makes life on & off campus so unique in Central Virginia.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

#491244
Is the change REALLY necessary though? I get that LU currently has a lack of space for students, but we know the school isn't hurting financially like it once was when this program first started. The way this looks - from the perspective of a lot of parents - is that LU, for years, through financial thick and thin has offered parents who invested early in their kids getting a Christian education a chance for their kids to get through school with relatively little student loan debt burden. Now that the University is financially healthy and doesn't lack applicants but has too many, the rug is being yanked from under these parents and students.
#491246
ALUmnus wrote:I think what's starting to get lost in this, and it stems directly from Junior's comments on the radio...is that LCA isn't just some random school.

And I don't think it can be said that the scholarships were just to fill seats at LU. I don't know this, but I imagine much of the scholarship offered, both at LCA and other area Christian schools, was done as support for those schools, and to encourage more families to send their kids to a Christian school. And in recent years and going forward, I think that's become even more important.

This isn't necessarily about who "deserves" it, but what's the aim. LU is obviously changed its direction here, and personally I don't agree with it.

And lastly, why would you make the announcement just a couple weeks into a new school year and say those new students who are already enrolled and taking classes that they're out of luck? That was kind of heartless.
First of all... you're merely guessing at what you logically think the scholarship was created for to help suit your arguments. I understand and it makes sense. However, if you knew anything about LU's first few graduating classes and the origins of the students of those classes it would quickly be known why that scholarship was created and who was the beneficiary at the time.

As far as what the aim is... that is apparent. The university is quickly approaching it's goals in terms of total enrollment. To me it seems apparent that they are somewhat intent on raising the standards of the school to help bolster it's academic credentials. They aren't spending all this money on brand new, state-of-the-art buildings to just continue to accept the first 4,000 students that commit to them. They are quickly coming into their own and realizing that LU is rising on a lot of students lists of colleges and they are going to do what they can to remove any barriers to ensure that any student from anywhere that has worked hard and earned the right to be accepted has no financial barriers to entry.

I will agree with your last statement. I do think the timing was suspect and I think the university should more to appease the newer parents who enrolled recently under the guise that this program wasn't going away anytime soon.
#491251
ALUmnus wrote:That was a terrible summary by R i, like a revisionist history of the message board. And there are parents at the other schools who are upset as well.

And people are throwing it on LU because they are the ones who made the decision, which I, for one, don't agree with. Sure, LCA acted like amateurs, but they're a small private school who rely heavily on the church and the university. They definitely deserve a lot of the blame. But from my perspective, because I don't agree with LU's decision, I put it mostly on LU.
A small private school? LCA's high school has a larger enrollment than nearly 40% of the public high schools in VA. It is one of the largest private schools in VA by far. It's a behemoth in the world of private high schools, especially considering the size of the locale it serves.
#491252
ALUmnus wrote: I don't know this, but I imagine much of the scholarship offered, both at LCA and other area Christian schools, was done as support for those schools, and to encourage more families to send their kids to a Christian school. And in recent years and going forward, I think that's become even more important.
LCA and other area schools ? Thats narrow minded if your really wanting to convey the importance of families sending their kids to a Christian school.
#491253
Humble_Opinion wrote:
ALUmnus wrote:That was a terrible summary by R i, like a revisionist history of the message board. And there are parents at the other schools who are upset as well.

And people are throwing it on LU because they are the ones who made the decision, which I, for one, don't agree with. Sure, LCA acted like amateurs, but they're a small private school who rely heavily on the church and the university. They definitely deserve a lot of the blame. But from my perspective, because I don't agree with LU's decision, I put it mostly on LU.
A small private school? LCA's high school has a larger enrollment than nearly 40% of the public high schools in VA. It is one of the largest private schools in VA by far. It's a behemoth in the world of private high schools, especially considering the size of the locale it serves.
The irony being is that it likely has such a high enrollment due to the benefit of the scholarship. lol
#491257
ballcoach15 wrote:If Doc were still with us, this scholarship reduction would never have happened.
If you read what JLFJR posted here you will see that there will be no reduction in the amount of scholarship $$$. The change is that, instead of all of those funds automatically going to students simply because they attended LCA and those other 3 local Christian schools, they will be distributed to a wider range of deserving local students based on criteria such as academic and personal accomplishment and financial need.

Would Doc have made this change? I think it is presumptious to say he would not have as if it were a given. He made a lot of changes in the way he handled certain situations through the years. He has been with the Lord for over 8 years now and the torch has been passed. While I am sure his sons always try to take into account the basic principles that guided their father when making important decisions, I would be disappointed if either of them went against what they believe to be best for Liberty University or TRBC based on the wisdom God has given them here and now in 2015 because they think Dad would have done it differently 8 years ago.
#491261
To hear Faith Hurt administration talk about it, sounds like they have know it was coming down the pike for a long time. (I spoke with a school administrator and they told me second hand)

As for the reason for the scholarships in the first place , Millions of dollars were donated to Liberty when they were in the red, The scholarships were Jerry's way of paying them back.(Timberlake and Faith at least) Along with all of the other things like life long Christian education.

A ton has changed for LCA now. From Maxed out enrollment this year, to competing with VHSL, facilities, staff, and overall prestige. I still say its a shame that LCA continued to lead parents into thinking the Liberty scholarship would still be there, when other schools knew it was probably going away.
#491267
R i wrote:
ALUmnus wrote: I don't know this, but I imagine much of the scholarship offered, both at LCA and other area Christian schools, was done as support for those schools, and to encourage more families to send their kids to a Christian school. And in recent years and going forward, I think that's become even more important.
LCA and other area schools ? Thats narrow minded if your really wanting to convey the importance of families sending their kids to a Christian school.
See, now you're just getting silly.
#491269
Humble_Opinion wrote:First of all... you're merely guessing at what you logically think the scholarship was created for to help suit your arguments. I understand and it makes sense. However, if you knew anything about LU's first few graduating classes and the origins of the students of those classes it would quickly be known why that scholarship was created and who was the beneficiary at the time.
Sure, and I didn't state it as fact. Am I guessing any more than you? Oh, wait, "if I knew anything about LU" then I should know better. Is that the gist?
#491270
First of all - I'm happy for you and the fact that you are debt free. My wife and I after having graduated nearly 7 years ago still owe nearly $80k in student loans. I worked at LU FT after college as did she for a while, before we got pregnant. No offense to JFLJR, but LU doesn't pay very well. If you look at Glassdoor.com you see that clearly. Sure, I got a degree there for free, but almost every company that has more than 500 employees offers the same education benefits that LU does.
Sorry that was your experience when you were here, but LU actually does pay well. Maybe not every area and maybe not when you were here, but where I work it certainly does and is quite competitive. Also, since when does almost every 500+ company let you, your spouse, and your kids get both a free undergrad and graduate degree? Not many that I'm aware of. Not sure I'd classify that as common.

Sorry it's a bit off topic and not exactly you're main point...just think LU gets a bad rap for benefits based on hearsay. They've had to adjust over the years, granted. But being a FT benefited employee now is certainly much different (better) than what it was, comparatively.
#491285
Man, you dont come on the board in a few days and you miss a party.

First, I dont see how the change in the scholarship in 2012 would have been universally seen a a "sign" that it was going away. In fact a change from 25% each year of HS, to 10% per year signaled to me that they were trying to encourage students to not just switch to LCA for high school but to start there from kindergarten. Seemed like a good idea to me. The thought that it could just go away had never dawned on me until last friday. I dont have any doubt that LU is well within their legal rights to just get rid of it based on the language being used in the explanations, in the same way I wouldn't assume I would be getting my money back for a Magic Bullet that broke after 2 uses (true story). I just previously had viewed LU differently than an infomercial company. One has thousands of my dollars and the other has $29.95.

The thought of holding LCA accountable for the scholarship money is laughable. They couldn't pay for that. Would LCA go under? TRBC couldn't afford it. I think we know who would wind up picking up that tab for them. Which is funny if you think about it.

How is allowing every current student to earn the full scholly not even an option of phasing it out? I can see if it was financially unsustainable, obviously the quickest way to get rid of it would be best but... lets just say we know that's not the case.

Also, the comment about no good deed goes unpunished? Come on.
#491293
rhezick wrote:
First of all - I'm happy for you and the fact that you are debt free. My wife and I after having graduated nearly 7 years ago still owe nearly $80k in student loans. I worked at LU FT after college as did she for a while, before we got pregnant. No offense to JFLJR, but LU doesn't pay very well. If you look at Glassdoor.com you see that clearly. Sure, I got a degree there for free, but almost every company that has more than 500 employees offers the same education benefits that LU does.
Sorry that was your experience when you were here, but LU actually does pay well. Maybe not every area and maybe not when you were here, but where I work it certainly does and is quite competitive. Also, since when does almost every 500+ company let you, your spouse, and your kids get both a free undergrad and graduate degree? Not many that I'm aware of. Not sure I'd classify that as common.

Sorry it's a bit off topic and not exactly you're main point...just think LU gets a bad rap for benefits based on hearsay. They've had to adjust over the years, granted. But being a FT benefited employee now is certainly much different (better) than what it was, comparatively.
Yeah I'm not going to debate this here. What I am saying is not based on hearsay though. I'll just leave it at that.
#491298
Humble_Opinion wrote:
rhezick wrote:
First of all - I'm happy for you and the fact that you are debt free. My wife and I after having graduated nearly 7 years ago still owe nearly $80k in student loans. I worked at LU FT after college as did she for a while, before we got pregnant. No offense to JFLJR, but LU doesn't pay very well. If you look at Glassdoor.com you see that clearly. Sure, I got a degree there for free, but almost every company that has more than 500 employees offers the same education benefits that LU does.
Sorry that was your experience when you were here, but LU actually does pay well. Maybe not every area and maybe not when you were here, but where I work it certainly does and is quite competitive. Also, since when does almost every 500+ company let you, your spouse, and your kids get both a free undergrad and graduate degree? Not many that I'm aware of. Not sure I'd classify that as common.

Sorry it's a bit off topic and not exactly you're main point...just think LU gets a bad rap for benefits based on hearsay. They've had to adjust over the years, granted. But being a FT benefited employee now is certainly much different (better) than what it was, comparatively.
Yeah I'm not going to debate this here. What I am saying is not based on hearsay though. I'll just leave it at that.
Understandable. Just stating what I know to be true for myself, in addition to the not that common education benefits (compared to non-education companies). That being said, certainly your mileage may vary depending on the department.
#491301
LUconn wrote:Man, you dont come on the board in a few days and you miss a party.

First, I dont see how the change in the scholarship in 2012 would have been universally seen a a "sign" that it was going away. In fact a change from 25% each year of HS, to 10% per year signaled to me that they were trying to encourage students to not just switch to LCA for high school but to start there from kindergarten. Seemed like a good idea to me. The thought that it could just go away had never dawned on me until last friday. I dont have any doubt that LU is well within their legal rights to just get rid of it based on the language being used in the explanations, in the same way I wouldn't assume I would be getting my money back for a Magic Bullet that broke after 2 uses (true story). I just previously had viewed LU differently than an infomercial company. One has thousands of my dollars and the other has $29.95.

The thought of holding LCA accountable for the scholarship money is laughable. They couldn't pay for that. Would LCA go under? TRBC couldn't afford it. I think we know who would wind up picking up that tab for them. Which is funny if you think about it.

How is allowing every current student to earn the full scholly not even an option of phasing it out? I can see if it was financially unsustainable, obviously the quickest way to get rid of it would be best but... lets just say we know that's not the case.

Also, the comment about no good deed goes unpunished? Come on.

Good post LUconn. JLFJR, please do the right thing.

SJ, I respect a lot of your opinions, but you're being an instigator on this issue.
#491306
This issue us spiraling out of control. I get why liberty is,doing what they are doing but it sucks and I believe the best way to approach removing the scholarships would be go truly grandfather In those already enrolled. Liberty may be in their legal rights but it just feels slimy.
#491367
thepostman wrote:This issue us spiraling out of control. I get why liberty is,doing what they are doing but it sucks and I believe the best way to approach removing the scholarships would be go truly grandfather In those already enrolled. Liberty may be in their legal rights but it just feels slimy.
Agreed. 'If it's Christian, it ought to be better'. LU may be within legal rights and it truly may be the best direction for the university. The university has to do what is best for it's long term vision.

However, with LU's financial situation they can probably very well afford to do both phasing out of the LCA scholarship and start spreading money to other qualified students. Or maybe constructing the tallest building in Lynchburg is more important :roll:

Assuming it is financial feasible, a much simpler, non-slimy, straightforward approach would be all current students are grandfathered in, future enrollees are not. Maybe I'm missing something.
#491376
Dr. Sheh wrote:
thepostman wrote:This issue us spiraling out of control. I get why liberty is,doing what they are doing but it sucks and I believe the best way to approach removing the scholarships would be go truly grandfather In those already enrolled. Liberty may be in their legal rights but it just feels slimy.
Agreed. 'If it's Christian, it ought to be better'. LU may be within legal rights and it truly may be the best direction for the university. The university has to do what is best for it's long term vision.

However, with LU's financial situation they can probably very well afford to do both phasing out of the LCA scholarship and start spreading money to other qualified students. Or maybe constructing the tallest building in Lynchburg is more important :roll:

Assuming it is financial feasible, a much simpler, non-slimy, straightforward approach would be all current students are grandfathered in, future enrollees are not. Maybe I'm missing something.
That's been my thought the entire time. But no one asks me. Sometimes I wonder if they just go out looking for bad press. That includes the necessity of having the tallest tower in Lynchburg. People with large monuments don't tend to fair well in most Bible stories
#491380
While grandfathering in all current students may seem a fair (although most definately generous) solution, it would raise some questions in my mind. What about the students/families who WERE fully aware the scholarship program was ending but chose to attend those schools anyway? Do we include them?

How much would this cost Liberty? Let´s just look at LCA, which seems to be where the primary problem lies. I´d be interested to see what the enrollment is by grade, which would allow for an estimate of what the cost would be for grandfathering everyone. At current tuition rates, we are looking at roughly $85,000 per student if they attended a total of 10 years at 10% or 4 years of HS at 25%. Obviously, that LU tuition number will go up in the future.

Let´s just pull a number out of the air and say that when you add up the % earned of all the current students it comes to the equivilant of 400 full scholarships. That would be 34 million dollars. :shock: I don´t know what the tower is going to cost, but I´m pretty sure it will be less than that.
Last edited by olldflame on September 12th, 2015, 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
#491381
I don't know why people are bringing the tower into this debate. It has zero to do with this debate since all they are doing is moving the scholarship money around.

Anyways, I don't think Liberty is going to backtrack on there decision and will just move forward because ultimately it will blow over and we will all be fired up about something else soon enough. I think they should've approached this much better but in the end the leadership has done an amazing job in recent years growing this university in a positive direction and they are much smarter than I. It doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision they make because that will never happen but overall I am very pleased with the direction my alma mater is going.

Plus it is football Saturday so I have more school spirit today, haha.
#491382
olldflame wrote:While grandfathering in all current students may seem a fair (although most definately generous) solution, it would raise som questions in my mind. What about the students/families who WERE fully aware the scholarship program was ending but chose to attend those schools anyway? Do we include them?

How much would this cost Liberty? Let´s just look at LCA, which seems to be where the primary problem lies. I´d be interested to see what the enrollment is by grade, which would allow for an estimate of what the cost would be for grandfathering everyone. At current tuition rates, we are looking at roughly $85,000 per student if they attended a total of 10 years at 10% or 4 years of HS at 25%. Obviously, that LU tuition number will go up in the future.

Let´s just pull a number out of the air and say that when you add up the % earned of all the current students it comes to the equivilant of 400 full scholarships. That would be 34 million dollars. :shock: I don´t know what the tower is going to cost, but I´m pretty sure it will be less than that.
LU never promised to build the tallest tower in Lynchburg to the local residents. Not even in the fine print
As for those being aware of the scholarships ending why would you not include those handful of people?
As for your accounting, the first thing to to realize is that these scholarships have pretty much been a fixed 'cost' to LU for decades. I'm sure the number of students utilizing it has grown, but not enough to break the bank
In your scenario the student cost would end after 10 years, the every day costs, electricity maintenance etc, would continue for much longer on The Tower
If one really wanted to counter your argument, why not take the money spent on The Tower in escrow to cover a significant portion of the 'cost' of the scholarship?
Will The Tower ever give money to the University as an Alum?

I've heard both sides of the debate and both have very valid arguments. The Scholarships v Tower comparison isn't really a valid one, but it points out the bigger problems. The first is LU seems to go out of the way to look for bad Publicity. If LU has more money than it knows what to do with, why cut the scholarships? The argument that LU has more money in other scholarships doesn't really matter. It's the people in the Middle being affected the most. Plus, it's not a guarantee that the students will qualify for them. Like buying a lottery ticket: I may win $2 or $200,000. Both are available to me with purchase.
Secondly, is LU about People or Palaces? When you look at the money spent on The Tower, on the Athletic Department to be #FBSReady while at the same time cutting this program, you can see where someone could ask that question. In the grand scheme of LU's budget this program is not that big of a deal
#491383
I don´t disagree Purple, although I´m not sure the number who knew about the changes is as small as you are implying, since it does appear the other schools did a much better job of informing people than LCA did. The idea was to make the change in scholarship policy revenue neutral, but to grandfather in all those who were misinformed would in fact be a fairly substancial (though temporary) extra expense if they are to also go forward with making funds available to other worthy families in the area.

I mentioned the tower only because it was brought up. I don´t know what it is going to cost, but unless it is a ridiculous amount, IMHO it is a good idea. In building a world-class campus, you can´t make everything totally utilitarian. Having something that can be a symbolic centerpiece of the universities archetecture while still serving other purposes (which appears to be the plan) is the best of both worlds.
#491388
I may have missed the part about LU wanting the move to be revenue neutral. I don't see how that is possible. Let's take a look at my thought process and see what happens: the numbers are not accurate but used for demonstration purposes

Under the Old Agreement the most LU would be responsible for is $15,000
Under this Program, the child in 7th grade has accumulated only enough for $10,000
That's $5,000 LU isn't responsible for and $5,000 the Parents are responsible for.
LU puts that $5,000 into another Scholarship Programs. LU is back to revenue Neutral. Parents are still $5,000 in the hole
Student qualifies for $2,500 in one of those Programs. LU now is in the Black because they still have $2,500 left of the $5,000. The Parents are in the hole only $2,500.
The parents pay $2,500 to LU which now recoups the other $2,500 to go back up a total of $5,000
Not revenue neutral for LU. Certainly not revenue neutral for the Parents.

All the reallocated scholarship dollars will go unclaimed/awarded, that's a fact in the world of Financial Aid. That alone will make it revenue Positive for LU. Granted, the Potential to be revenue neutral or even negative, but the reality is that a lot of LU students won't qualify for the new or more heartily financed Programs. Then of course you have to add the actual dollars that parents will now be sending to LU and it appears that a Revenue Neutral position is a fallacy

As for The Tower of Power I agree the comparisons aren't appropriate.
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