[JakeP50]

As promised straight from the Vines Center this morning...

1. Convo is going in the round (that is set in stone)
2. It may switch to Tuesday-Thursday and be 90 minutes long (waiting on feedback from students on that one)
3. If it stays MWF, Mondays wont have a speaker instead going to what David called the 4 P's (Pray, Praise, Plan and Play)
1st Monday of every month "Pray" ( pretty self explanatory)
2nd Monday "Praise" (music for the whole time)
3rd Monday "Plan" or Alt Convo (updates on what is going on around campus, hopefully a little more in depth than hall meeting)
4th Monday "Play" (just fun, examples used by David were Jim Gaffigan, Willie Nelson and "If it's a nice day we'll have a bunch of food trucks outside and eat some overpriced tacos")
4. Campus band will be completely student-led and more diverse(not to much detail on that one)

The biggest change would be two days a week, I'm not to sure how I feel about that, I like the new plan for Mondays better than a 90 minute convo two days a week.

[SuperJon]

I like that Monday idea a lot, especially if we can teach students that prayer doesn't have to be boring. And if we get the balls to talk about listening in prayer then that's a total game changer from the spiritual life perspective.

The play/food truck idea is great. You can't underestimate organized fun times, especially if they're not super cheesy. If they can keep them entertaining and fun and not dumb, it'll be great for the school.

[Hold My Own]

I watched convo with quite a bit intrigue as it felt like going into today this was going to be a turning point for LU. I trust Nasser and trust that his convictions are spirit led. I'll also say that he's someone with a clear vision and a path to get there...if we lose a few along the way he's ok with that...if that's truly where God intended us to be. That takes some guts and he's put all of his cards on the table and everyone gets to decide if they want to play or not.

Loved his speech today. He refuses to allow our current students forget our past and that we should be focused on training champions for Christ...not any one person or anything else.

To this day just about everyone that comes back to campus will quote things from Doc that made an impact on their lives while they were here. I've often wondered who is giving our current students those things they'll hang onto the rest of their lives....I think Nasser is that man. I just hope he can continue at this pace...I can't imagine how exhausting it has been or will be.

[Purple Haize]

I watched convo with quite a bit intrigue as it felt like going into today this was going to be a turning point for LU. I trust Nasser and trust that his convictions are spirit led. I'll also say that he's someone with a clear vision and a path to get there...if we lose a few along the way he's ok with that...if that's truly where God intended us to be. That takes some guts and he's put all of his cards on the table and everyone gets to decide if they want to play or not.

Loved his speech today. He refuses to allow our current students forget our past and that we should be focused on training champions for Christ...not any one person or anything else.

To this day just about everyone that comes back to campus will quote things from Doc that made an impact on their lives while they were here. I've often wondered who is giving our current students those things they'll hang onto the rest of their lives....I think Nasser is that man. I just hope he can continue at this pace...I can't imagine how exhausting it has been or will be.

You were solid until the Jesus Juke Although I would caution about being Cavalier with the 'if we lose some along the way' attitude. Just saying.

[Hold My Own]

Hardly consider that a Jesus juke! Of course being ok with losing some should be taken with caution...and I dont think anyone is actually "ok" with that. Sadly it's an inevitable truth though. I think the biggest difference is the fact that nobody wishing or ok with losing a few along this journey and I trust that DN (he's put himself out there by sharing his cell phone number so he's as accessible as he can be) and other university resources in place is enough to give every opportunity to equip and help those that get off the path to find their way back. I think we've gotten a bit comfortable and I think some will be made uncomfortable which is a change that not everyone can or will adapt to.

This move showed how great of a leader JLFJR really is because he saw an area that could use a shot in the arm and I truly believe DN is the right man for the job.

[Purple Haize]

Hardly consider that a Jesus juke! Of course being ok with losing some should be taken with caution...and I dont think anyone is actually "ok" with that. Sadly it's an inevitable truth though. I think the biggest difference is the fact that nobody wishing or ok with losing a few along this journey and I trust that DN (he's put himself out there by sharing his cell phone number so he's as accessible as he can be) and other university resources in place is enough to give every opportunity to equip and help those that get off the path to find their way back. I think we've gotten a bit comfortable and I think some will be made uncomfortable which is a change that not everyone can or will adapt to.

This move showed how great of a leader JLFJR really is because he saw an area that could use a shot in the arm and I truly believe DN is the right man for the job.

Someone's bucking for an updated Christmas present!

[BJWilliams]

I like the move...and I think we can say that Jerry really wants to see Liberty not go the way of Harvard, or Yale or any number of other schools who have gone by the wayside

[Purple Haize]

I like the move...and I think we can say that Jerry really wants to see Liberty not go the way of Harvard, or Yale or any number of other schools who have gone by the wayside

So it could be argued that by cutting convo from 3 to 2 times a week makes it easier to go to 1 time a week, then monthly, then,....
And we are in no danger of ever being confused with Harvard

[BJWilliams]

The first part is a slippery slope fallacy...the second part...well if you read your history you'd be surprised...I wouldn't want to see that happening in 2-3 generations

[Purple Haize]

The first part is a slippery slope fallacy...the second part...well if you read your history you'd be surprised...I wouldn't want to see that happening in 2-3 generations

Some would say cutting the number of convo's a week IS a slippery slope. Because it is far easier to do something again that has already been done once
What history would you be referencing? Do you not think I know the early history of a school I may or may not have attended?

[BJWilliams]

Youre casting an assumption about that progression though. remember, the OP said that DN and his office are awaiting the student feedback on that proposal.

[Purple Haize]

Youre casting an assumption about that progression though. remember, the OP said that DN and his office are awaiting the student feedback on that proposal.

Doesn't mean the decision hasn't already been made

[ECUnited]

Just a thought, but I'm wondering if bringing in Nasser was driven more by Jonathan and the Spiritual Direction committee of the BOR, rather than JLFJR?

[Purple Haize]

Just a thought, but I'm wondering if bringing in Nasser was driven more by Jonathan and the Spiritual Direction committee of the BOR, rather than JLFJR?

Pot stirer

I don't think there is as much cross over between TRBC and LU. Except when money is needed

[BCXtreme]

Slippery slope is always a fallacy when the progression presented is not one of logical necessity. If Convocation is reduced to twice per week (and made longer as compensation), it does not follow as a logical necessity that Convocation will eventually be further reduced to once per week. To not restructure Convocation from three days to two days (much like similar changes to 3-credit classes) on those grounds would be a decision made out of fear. But speaking of that…

What exactly makes an eventual future with no Convocation a worst-case scenario? We have no way of knowing for certain what will or won't happen to LU, the church, cultural attitudes, and other relevant factors. The day may come when having no Convocation is actually preferable to the alternative options at the time. Any suggestion that a Christian school, to avoid secularizing or compromising, needs mandatory chapel three times each week would, of course, be a very dubious claim. The frequency of mandatory chapel may affect students' faith, but if we believe it to be actually determining students' faith, we would have to question the sincerity of that faith in the first place.

Bear in mind, I left LU for a secular university, so my vantage point is a little different. But I still think any notion that LU's Christian principles, and/or the faith of the students, may be dependent on thrice-weekly mandatory Convocation services is something to think long and hard about.

Just a thought, but I'm wondering if bringing in Nasser was driven more by Jonathan and the Spiritual Direction committee of the BOR, rather than JLFJR?

Pot stirer

I don't think there is as much cross over between TRBC and LU. Except when money is needed

Except that Jonathan sits on LU's Board of Trustees. Which I believe was EC's point.

[SuperJon]

Less convo can actually have a positive impact on the spiritual life of students. I didn't get involved in a local church during undergrad because I felt like I had enough Bible throughout the week in class and that's without going to convo.

With that said, I think the proposed Monday idea is better than switching and lengthening on Tuesday/Thursday. It switches up the monotony of convo and even brings some fun into it.

[ALUmnus]

Less convo can actually have a positive impact on the spiritual life of students. I didn't get involved in a local church during undergrad because I felt like I had enough Bible throughout the week in class and that's without going to convo.

I think that would have more to do with a misunderstanding of church than with having convocation/chapel. Convocation serves a purpose, but it's not, and is not intended to be, a replacement to the local church.

It's interesting that on one hand we need to treat college students as grown adults, and then on the other hand they need to have a zany youth group atmosphere. I guess it just depends on the topic at hand.

[BCXtreme]

Less convo can actually have a positive impact on the spiritual life of students. I didn't get involved in a local church during undergrad because I felt like I had enough Bible throughout the week in class and that's without going to convo.

I think that would have more to do with a misunderstanding of church than with having convocation/chapel. Convocation serves a purpose, but it's not, and is not intended to be, a replacement to the local church.

Actually, Jon has some excellent points. The misunderstanding is on the part of Liberty, not the students. Core student life at Liberty—Convocation, Campus Church, prayer groups—is far more similar to a church than a university. Perhaps there is confusion because LU tries to be too much like a church.

It's interesting that on one hand we need to treat college students as grown adults, and then on the other hand they need to have a zany youth group atmosphere. I guess it just depends on the topic at hand.

Interesting? Felt to me like LU was nearly all of the latter, hardly ever the former.

[Hold My Own]

Some would say cutting the number of convo's a week IS a slippery slope. Because it is far easier to do something again that has already been done once

You can't have it both ways and bash LU's history of being able to count properly and get flustered when someone makes a decision that quality is better than quantity. Believe me when I say I'm almost paranoid but us ever detracting from our roots as just about every current liberal leaning schools have...but this does not worry me in the slightest. I trust the intentions and it really does come across as the correct approach IMO. I would not be vocal about this and try to spin the idea if I didn't believe in it...I simply wouldn't post.

I think we're also making a lot of assumptions here as if this is a done deal and it seems to be far from that. The students and admin have a voice and then a decision will be made...think about that...in just one post I've said that someone believes in quality not quantity and that the students and admin have a voice. We're trending in a very good direction here...

[ATrain]

BCXTreme brings up some great points. There is hardly ever incentive for students (especially on-campus students), to go to a local church as it appears - unintentionally - the set-up on campus mimics what you're likely to find attending a local church. For the record, I attended Hyland Heights Baptist 3 years of undergrad, campus church my senior year (felt obligated to go as a prayer leader), then commuted to Farmville on Sundays for church during grad school.

[SuperJon]

Less convo can actually have a positive impact on the spiritual life of students. I didn't get involved in a local church during undergrad because I felt like I had enough Bible throughout the week in class and that's without going to convo.

I think that would have more to do with a misunderstanding of church than with having convocation/chapel. Convocation serves a purpose, but it's not, and is not intended to be, a replacement to the local church.

It's interesting that on one hand we need to treat college students as grown adults, and then on the other hand they need to have a zany youth group atmosphere. I guess it just depends on the topic at hand.

I actually taught at a college retreat this weekend and one of my best friends is a college pastor. The "grown adults vs youth group" tension is spot on. Current college students are used to being spoon fed through middle school and high school. When they get to college, they expect it to keep going. You can't completely rip the spoon away or they fall apart and don't know what to do. You also can't continue feeding them that way because they'll never learn to feed themselves. College ministries are becoming more of a transitional ministry than anything.

As for your local church vs convo argument, I agree with most of it. The flip side is that students can become burnt out on "church-like" activities (convo, Bible classes, prayer groups, etc) throughout the week that they feel they've already gotten their fill for the week when Sunday rolls around. Some friends of mine just planted a church about 15 minutes from Lee University. One of them came to me last week and asked if Liberty "required you to be so engaged with Liberty spiritual stuff that you weren’t able to actually be part of a church?" That's what they're running into with the Lee students down there.

It's a tension that we're always going to be in. The local church and Christian schools (whether university or grade school) have different missions under the same ultimate umbrella. Many times those unique missions interfere with each other.

[BCXtreme]

BCXTreme brings up some great points. There is hardly ever incentive for students (especially on-campus students), to go to a local church as it appears - unintentionally - the set-up on campus mimics what you're likely to find attending a local church. For the record, I attended Hyland Heights Baptist 3 years of undergrad, campus church my senior year (felt obligated to go as a prayer leader), then commuted to Farmville on Sundays for church during grad school.

I was trying to figure out how you could possibly believe that's not intentional, then read on and saw that you were a prayer leader. Mystery solved!

Bottom line: If LU wasn't trying to have a youth group atmosphere, they would have fixed it by now. There's nothing unintentional about the way they have tailored student life to imitate church ministry and give the most benefit to students who are passionate about church ministry.

You left your local church of three years for LU's campus church because you felt obligated to do so by your student leadership position. I assure you that's exactly what they wanted because I've seen plenty of similar examples from others.

[SuperJon]

You're waaaaaay too quick to blame Liberty here.

Liberty, as a University, has the intentions to provide the best possible care for their students. That's why they have the current structures in place, including prayer groups, campus church, etc. They know the need for students to connect and know students (in general) won't connect in positive ways unless forced. Those desires, while positive in nature, come at odds with the local church because students don't get involved in serving/small groups at their church because they're already doing things with their dorms and prayer groups.

This is not a Liberty only problem and if you believe it is, you need to get more experience around Christian schools at all levels.

Here in town, we have the Christian Academy of Knoxville. The headmaster attends our church and we have a ton of CAK kids at our church. CAK does grade-centric outings. They do services put on by students for students. They do small groups throughout the school. All of these things, on their own, are great. However, students can't participate in the CAK sponsored events and the events at the local church. Through a series of great intentions, the school has monopolized the students' time and kept them from the local church.

This isn't a Liberty only problem.

[ALUmnus]

Less convo can actually have a positive impact on the spiritual life of students. I didn't get involved in a local church during undergrad because I felt like I had enough Bible throughout the week in class and that's without going to convo.

I think that would have more to do with a misunderstanding of church than with having convocation/chapel. Convocation serves a purpose, but it's not, and is not intended to be, a replacement to the local church.

Actually, Jon has some excellent points. The misunderstanding is on the part of Liberty, not the students. Core student life at Liberty—Convocation, Campus Church, prayer groups—is far more similar to a church than a university. Perhaps there is confusion because LU tries to be too much like a church.

It's interesting that on one hand we need to treat college students as grown adults, and then on the other hand they need to have a zany youth group atmosphere. I guess it just depends on the topic at hand.

Interesting? Felt to me like LU was nearly all of the latter, hardly ever the former.

Actually, it's not an LU thing. It's pretty much the standard for Christian education. Bringing elements of the church into an educational setting is not a bad thing.

A student not going to a local church can in no way be LU's fault. Call it "burnout" or "felt obligation" all you want, but it's a fundamental misunderstanding on the part of the student. Campus church has it's function, particularly to students with no transportation. There's a need for it in that regard. Now, back in the day, when you took Elmer's OT/NT class, you were required to attend his Sunday school class. I wasn't really happy about that. I mean, dude, we bought your book, isn't that enough? But that right there is compulsion and obligation. I was a prayer leader for a couple years and NEVER felt that I had to go to campus church.

The latter quote was more of a reference to how many discussions of "tyrannical LU" go on this board, ie. "they're adults!".

[BCXtreme]

This is not a Liberty only problem and if you believe it is, you need to get more experience around Christian schools at all levels. […] This isn't a Liberty only problem.

Actually, it's not an LU thing. It's pretty much the standard for Christian education.

I didn't say it was exclusively an LU thing. I'm well aware it's a common problem of Christian education.

They know the need for students to connect and know students (in general) won't connect in positive ways unless forced.

Bringing elements of the church into an educational setting is not a bad thing.

Both of those statements are core principles of Christian education from what I gather, which is exactly why I abandoned LU for a secular education. I could not disagree more vehemently with those two statements.

My point to you is that, as long as you keep trying to blend the modern ideas of church and college, you WILL have these problems. If you're fully accepting of that, so be it. But then you should understand why some of us don't go for it.