This is the definitive place to discuss everything that makes life on & off campus so unique in Central Virginia.

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By PAmedic
Registration Days Posts
#459358
rather than bump a 3yr old thread ["DISTURBING stats"], I figured I'd start a new one.

*********************

everyone has been hard on the school for years -rightfully so, maybe - for our perceived status, esp regarding acceptance rates. Our president has stated it was due largely to the reporting methodology.

not sure when the change was made, but we seem to have corrected the issue. I spent some time researching and, after looking at ALL school in VA, NC and SC- we are THIRD on the list in selectivity, behind only DUKE and WASHINGTON & LEE.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... ortdir=asc

our acceptance rate is 22.8% ("SELECTIVE") which is far and away the lowest in the BSOUTH, even outgoing member VMI accepts 46% of applicants.

so next time I hear something about "throwing degrees in your car as you drive past" I'm posting the entire list of 150 schools. Ok, maybe not. People will just find something else to slam us about.

but point taken. Somewhere HMO and CIDER JIM are grinning like the Cheshire Cat(s).

now, about that "#89, Regional Universities (South)" ranking... not sure how they come up with that, but we can surely improve there too...
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By BCXtreme
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#459362
I originally thought that data was positive too, but LU's acceptance rate is not really the selectivity it appears to be. Around 24,000 freshmen are applying each year now (just for Resident programs), which means the school is only capable of enrolling about 16% of that. Accept much more than 22% and you have no room for the number of students who actually enroll after acceptance. A glance at LU's SAT/ACT averages will tell you the "selectivity" has much more to do with capacity than academic qualifiers.

LU's ranking for 2014 was very scary, IMO. U.S. News changed their algorithms to increase the weight of output factors (i.e., how well the school educates students) as compared to input factors (i.e., how many students are denied admission), which is completely in line with LU's philosophy and therefore should have improved LU's ranking. In reality, LU's ranking DROPPED 24 places. I attended classes on campus from Fall 2011 through Spring 2014, and I can tell you there is something wrong on the academic side: there was a definite decrease in academic standards and student interest during that period. I am very anxious to see what happens when the 2015 rankings are released next month.
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By PAmedic
Registration Days Posts
#459364
Code: Select all
SCHOOL                           LOCATION                               %  SELECTIVITY                         
Campbell University 	          Buies Creek, North Carolina 	           65.84%
Charleston Southern University   North Charleston, South Carolina 	      82.22%
Coastal Carolina University 	  Conway, South Carolina                    74.04%
Gardner–Webb University 	      Boiling Springs, North Carolina 	       54.67% 
High Point University 	        High Point, North Carolina 	            64.18%
Kennesaw State University 	    Kennesaw, Georgia 	                     56.54%
Liberty University 	           Lynchburg, Virginia                       22.8%  	
Longwood University 	          Farmville, Virginia 	                   77.63%
Monmouth University 	          West Long Branch, New Jersey              71.13%  
Presbyterian College 	         Clinton, South Carolina                   57.79%  
Radford University 	           Radford, Virginia 	                     76.37%
Winthrop University 	          Rock Hill, South Carolina 	             70.69%
UNC Asheville 	                Asheville, North Carolina 	             63.82%

Virginia Military Institute 	  Lexington, Virginia                       46.28% 
Last edited by PAmedic on August 20th, 2014, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By PAmedic
Registration Days Posts
#459365
BCXTREME you may well be right.

the whole "Ranking" thing is subjective and subject to manipulation to achieve whichever outcome one wants

my point was we got slammed for "SELECTIVITY" and now we've corrected the data reporting to show that we are, in actuality, very selective.

PREDICTION: the target will now be moved to show why that no longer is the focus...

ie; SAT/ACT, blood type, people with last names ending in "Z", lord knows what else

haters gonna hate
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By BCXtreme
Posts
#461508
U.S. News & World Report released their 2015 rankings this morning. Pleased to see that Liberty University has moved up from #89 to #80 in the Regional Universities (South) category. Still well below the #65 ranking they earned a few years back, but at least the trend is moving in the right direction. Hopefully LU will capitalize on this and continue making improvements to academic quality. If Liberty is to remain in the Regional (non-research) category for a while longer, I want to see them at least make the top 30 at some point.

This year, the Princeton Review recognized Lynchburg College, Randolph College, and Sweet Briar College each for excellence in at least one area. Liberty University received no recognition from them. At all. For a university that constantly claims to be "world-class" and "if it's Christian, it ought to be better," there's no excuse for that. Liberty's own stated goals and mission provide no reason why they would be unable to earn that kind of recognition and/or ranking. They just need to try harder. They certainly have the resources and passion required.
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By bluejacket
Posts
#461523
BCXtreme wrote:U.S. News & World Report released their 2015 rankings this morning. Pleased to see that Liberty University has moved up from #89 to #80 in the Regional Universities (South) category. Still well below the #65 ranking they earned a few years back, but at least the trend is moving in the right direction. Hopefully LU will capitalize on this and continue making improvements to academic quality. If Liberty is to remain in the Regional (non-research) category for a while longer, I want to see them at least make the top 30 at some point.

This year, the Princeton Review recognized Lynchburg College, Randolph College, and Sweet Briar College each for excellence in at least one area. Liberty University received no recognition from them. At all. For a university that constantly claims to be "world-class" and "if it's Christian, it ought to be better," there's no excuse for that. Liberty's own stated goals and mission provide no reason why they would be unable to earn that kind of recognition and/or ranking. They just need to try harder. They certainly have the resources and passion required.
Amen.
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#461560
its been that way forever because I believe Doc said everybody deserves a shot a quality Christian college education. Most of the elite are not a fan of that way of thinking but ultimately the ones who aren't college material end up leaving or taking 10 years.
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By prototype
Registration Days Posts
#461575
Cider Jim wrote:LU does have a freshman this year who has a perfect 1600 SAT.
didn't they change the scoring scale?

thanks cider, but i graduated a while ago. not sure you can still refer to me as a freshman anymore.
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By BCXtreme
Posts
#461589
BuryYourDuke wrote:The acceptance rate thing is kind of a sham. Essentially what happens is this: Say we get 24,000 applications, and have 3,000 spots. Rather than select the best 3,000 applications, Liberty selects the first 3,000 that meet our academic requirements (which are VERY low) AND can get through financial check in. Therefore, being accepted to Liberty is more a function of being able to pay for it than being a good candidate.

That comes straight from an admissions counselor.
As I mentioned up above.
thepostman wrote:its been that way forever because I believe Doc said everybody deserves a shot a quality Christian college education. Most of the elite are not a fan of that way of thinking but ultimately the ones who aren't college material end up leaving or taking 10 years.
That's how it's supposed to turn out. Unfortunately, in the last few years (IMHO as a former resident student) LU has really been catering to those "not college material" people by lowering grading standards and overall academic expectations so they can graduate. Liberty's culture also seems to be strongly "rigged" toward the students interested in ministry (full-time or part-time). So a lot of the "not college material" people stick around, and the (lack of) academic culture that creates on campus causes LU to attract more of those people, and less of the dedicated Christian college student crowd. This shift played a huge role in my decision to leave the resident program. (Before anyone asks, I went to LUO only because transferring to another school with less than 25 credits left at LU would have been disastrous re: both time and money.)
Cider Jim wrote:LU does have a freshman this year who has a perfect 1600 SAT.
Good for them. One of 4,000 freshmen is a top student, while their median remains around 900. Unless that student is highly ministry-oriented, it won't surprise me if they ultimately transfer.

***DISCLAIMER: I in no way think SAT scores should be the sole determinant of academic dedication. You can score a 900 on the SAT, and still have a thirst for knowledge and a passion for learning. The Liberty students I met during sophomore and junior years didn't have that, and that happens to correspond to the mediocre admissions profile.
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By Cider Jim
Registration Days Posts
#461596
BCXtreme wrote:One of 4,000 freshmen is a top student...
Actually, we have a freshman class of 238 Honors Program students who have an average 1370 SAT, and 52 of them are either National Merit Finalists or National Merit Commended students with a full tuition scholarship or a full academic ride, many of whom play for our nationally ranked Quiz Bowl team.
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By BCXtreme
Posts
#461627
Cider Jim wrote:
BCXtreme wrote:One of 4,000 freshmen is a top student...
Actually, we have a freshman class of 238 Honors Program students who have an average 1370 SAT, and 52 of them are either National Merit Finalists or National Merit Commended students with a full tuition scholarship or a full academic ride, many of whom play for our nationally ranked Quiz Bowl team.
My apologies. So roughly six percent (5.95%) of the freshman class are top students, assuming a tight bell curve around that SAT average. Is that a distinct improvement as a percentage of the incoming class versus the past two years? Because otherwise, six percent is still not impressive to me. The nearby University of Virginia has a 1355 median SAT among ALL incoming freshmen, 92% of whom where in the top tenth of their high school graduating classes. Perhaps a fairer comparison: Baylor University, a Baptist school of almost identical size to Liberty, has a 1330 SAT as their 75th percentile, with 42% of their students coming from the top tenth of a graduating class. At Liberty University, the 75th percentile is 1150 (25th is 900), with just 38% coming not from the top tenth, but the top quarter of their graduating classes. (* All numbers above are estimates based on available data, but would have to be absurdly far off to nullify my point.)

I'm not saying Liberty's class profiles are poor in the absolute sense; in fact, I've seen worse. But when you scan around the class profiles of various other schools, Liberty's class profiles are consistent with those of a very mediocre college, not with those of the type of top-notch institution Liberty wants and claims to be.
lynchburgwildcats wrote:900 is the median SAT? Yikes.
I apologize if I stated or implied that earlier. 900 is actually the 25th percentile. The median should be around 1025 or so. So about 25% of resident Liberty students submitting SAT's got less than 900.
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#461639
BCXtreme wrote:
Cider Jim wrote:
BCXtreme wrote:One of 4,000 freshmen is a top student...
Actually, we have a freshman class of 238 Honors Program students who have an average 1370 SAT, and 52 of them are either National Merit Finalists or National Merit Commended students with a full tuition scholarship or a full academic ride, many of whom play for our nationally ranked Quiz Bowl team.
My apologies. So roughly six percent (5.95%) of the freshman class are top students, assuming a tight bell curve around that SAT average. Is that a distinct improvement as a percentage of the incoming class versus the past two years? Because otherwise, six percent is still not impressive to me. The nearby University of Virginia has a 1355 median SAT among ALL incoming freshmen, 92% of whom where in the top tenth of their high school graduating classes. Perhaps a fairer comparison: Baylor University, a Baptist school of almost identical size to Liberty, has a 1330 SAT as their 75th percentile, with 42% of their students coming from the top tenth of a graduating class. At Liberty University, the 75th percentile is 1150 (25th is 900), with just 38% coming not from the top tenth, but the top quarter of their graduating classes. (* All numbers above are estimates based on available data, but would have to be absurdly far off to nullify my point.)

I'm not saying Liberty's class profiles are poor in the absolute sense; in fact, I've seen worse. But when you scan around the class profiles of various other schools, Liberty's class profiles are consistent with those of a very mediocre college, not with those of the type of top-notch institution Liberty wants and claims to be.
lynchburgwildcats wrote:900 is the median SAT? Yikes.
I apologize if I stated or implied that earlier. 900 is actually the 25th percentile. The median should be around 1025 or so. So about 25% of resident Liberty students submitting SAT's got less than 900.
Is that class rank out of the total student population? Because I have a feeling a good size of LU's student population is home schooled. I would also imagine that Liberty gets a lot students from smaller schools, where an extremely good GPA of say, 3.5 or higher, may not still be enough to get you into the top 10%.
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By BJWilliams
Registration Days Posts
#461642
I think ATrain hit on a good point. If I went to Liberty right out of high school I would have been out of 19 people. in a class that small it doesnt take a math genius to know that the top 10 or even 25 percent is a very small number, and very different than top 10 or 25 from a class of say...650
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By BCXtreme
Posts
#461646
ATrain wrote:Is that class rank out of the total student population? Because I have a feeling a good size of LU's student population is home schooled. I would also imagine that Liberty gets a lot students from smaller schools, where an extremely good GPA of say, 3.5 or higher, may not still be enough to get you into the top 10%.
The class rank is going to be a percentage of the people who provide class rank. In similar fashion, SAT and ACT percentiles are based only on the students who actually submitted an SAT or ACT score.

I do not believe you are correct about the percentage of students who are homeschooled. I was one of only a few that I met across all three years. As for the GPA argument, only about 44% of Liberty students had a high school GPA of 3.5 or more. Unfortunately, GPA doesn't tell you much about the quality of the education they received. The GPA metric contrasts sharply with both standardized test metrics, which tells me that many are coming from high schools with sub-par grading standards.

You guys are raising good points, but none of them explain why Liberty's class profile would be so different from that of Baylor, another Baptist school with a conservative reputation and similar application and enrollment numbers. Also, the class rank argument is moot because it actually corresponds to the mediocre SAT/ACT score, which indicates that the class rank data are not likely to be suffering from small high school class sizes or other external interference. All three figures are lined up, which would not be the case if the class rank data were abnormalities.

If I understand correctly, both of you (ATrain and BJ) graduated some time ago. Living on campus, I met people as old as Class of 2012 and as young as Class of 2017. It's not hard at all for me to believe that the student body you experienced cared more about academics than the student body I experienced. I saw academic dedication in the older classes. I saw the more recent classes whining about having to take a 10-question multiple-choice quiz in GNED, and then laughing about how they only got FOUR right. There has definitely been a shift, yet the technicals have not dropped drastically in correlation. Which means, Liberty is not now attracting students who are less able to do well, but rather students who are less willing to do well. IMHO, that's scary.
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#461648
I was '07 and '09...at that time, it seemed to be an inordinate amount of students were homeschooled. BJ was there when I started in '03 and after I finished the second time in '09.

Also, people do a great amount of maturing in their 4 years of college. GNED I didn't care about, most of my 100 level classes I didn't care, but as I aged and progressed, I cared more.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#461652
For the record, Baylor is a but of an elitist school down here in Texas along with SMU. It is primarily a rich kid's school IMHO where most of the student body comes from affluent areas and pretty decent academic background.

I'm not sure what homeschooling has to do with much of any of the above discussion.
By Curtisc83
Registration Days Posts
#461683
TCU and Rice fall into that category too. It's rare when I run into a Rice Alum in Austin. I live next to one but he doesn't care for Rice FB. He's the only one I know. I think they go into hiding once they graduate....LOL.
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