A Sea Of Red

Alright, you may recognize this picture. It's the Wards Rd stoplight entrance of Walmart/Sam's.

I've highlighted the stopsigns with red circles since you couldn't see them very well. It's a 2 lane turn at the light into walmart so lanes 1 and 2 are normally full at the same time. The question is: Should cars in lane 2 stop at this intersection? Does that stop sign apply to them or just lane number 1.






I assume that those cars should stop. But coming across the intersection 90 degrees to the right of that lane, assuming that they're supposed to stop, I've gotten some real nasty reactions from those folks. I think the general consensus from the locals is that they don't have to.

One wildcard is the lack of white line, or if there is one it's very faint.

also, if you're looking at this thread in the default flamefans view, my lane numbers are cut off. Get with the program and switch it.

Where's Medic? He's the only true professional here who can speak with authority on the subject.

Of course, I think HMO used to be in the transporation business...

Oh, and didn't BJ used to work at Wal-Mart?

so what do you do there CJ?

I think lane 2 should stop...however, this is a definite lack of a white line there.

Personally I think the stop signs for the traffic coming from or going to the light should be removed, or they should build a roundabout

If there's a stop sign, cars in both lanes would have to STOP. How could it be any way else?

I'd stop.

You can't base what's right by what the locals do. These are the same people who STOP in a merging lane of traffic when you're approaching the mall to get on Candler's Mountain Road.

personally I am thankful I do not have to worry about driving through some of the worse designed parking lots on the planer any longer...seriously...they are terrible

Although I do believe you are supposed to stop, I'll play devil's advocate.

If I'm not from here and this is my first experience, I'm in lane 2, there's no visible white line and the cars in Lane 1 are blocking my view of the sign. How do I know I have to stop. Especially if I just came from the parking lot at Target where the 2 lanes that go straight DON'T have to stop and everyone else does, which makes no sense.

Lynchburg people lose any semblance of intelligence when they get behind the wheel and especially in a parking lot. I was nearly run over not once, but twice while entering and exiting Kohl's last week. I was crossing in the crosswalk with a stop sign right in the middle of it. I was already in a lousy mood having to go in the store and I nearly lost it on the second guy. I HATE going in those lots. My dream is to buy an old beater one day and go down there and look for idiots to ram into when they ignore signs.

I will say it again...the parking lot designs are terrible...they bring out the worse in people

Stop signs in parking lots are mere suggestions IMHO. They are not street signs unless the city designates as such. I would just proceed with caution to avoid collisions.

Sly Fox wrote:Stop signs in parking lots are mere suggestions IMHO. They are not street signs unless the city designates as such.

I've never thought about this. I think I'm going to adopt this philosophy.

As for the Walmart scenario, if lane 2 does NOT have to stop, then why would lane 1 have to stop? Same traffic coming from the same direction, exept one lane turns right, which would actually assume less restrictions than traffic going straight. So the fact that there's a stop sign at all at that corner would seem to say both lanes should stop. But the whole design is completely terrible, and in accordance to Lynchburg standards.

Really, in a town where people are scared to death of a four-way-stop intersection, the parking designs put everyone at a huge disadvantage. And the sad thing is, these are all brand new parking lots.

missed this one somehow.

Can only speak for PA with any certainty, BUT:

stop signs control access to intersections- so if its a 4-way stop, it controls each avenue in its' entirety.

therefore, all lanes in each direction would be subject to the control device (stop/yield)

typically- there is a stop bar extending all the way across, but in the event there is none, most states have language stating something to the effect of "shall stop in line with the posted sign, or stop bar, or as near as possible to the beginning of the intersection"

you would NOT have one lane stopping with the corresponding lane next to it (same direction) NOT stopping- that would be insane.

Re: SLY's opinion- true, shopping ctrs are private property, and some signage would be considered "non-ordinanced (handicapped signage, expectant mom signage, etc) but any control devices directing traffic flow (one way signs, stop signs, yield signs, signal lights, PAINTED LINES, etc) that are posted on a common traffic way (through streets, main artery through the parking lot) ARE subject to traffic laws.

IE: if the roadway/driveway is open to the public and commonly used for public access, its subject to state laws governing traffic/vehicles. If it is a private road or not used for common access, it is NOT (your driveway, private lot for an apartment, etc)

hope thats clear as mud.

your state statute governing stop signs is Virginia Code § 46.2-821
http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/46.2-821.HTM

old guys in the VA state legislature once wrote:§ 46.2-821. Vehicles before entering certain highways shall stop or yield right-of-way.

The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection on a highway controlled by a stop sign shall, immediately before entering such intersection, stop at a clearly marked stop line, or, in the absence of a stop line, stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or, in the absence of a marked crosswalk, stop at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway. Before proceeding, he shall yield the right-of-way to the driver of any vehicle approaching on such other highway from either direction.

so each direction must yield to one another, regardless of what lane one is in.

Also, SLY's point pertains to signage that is on private property and is NOT ordinanced. In that event, if the property owner has a standing agreement to show up in court as a witness, we will write Disorderly Conduct citations for this type of violation based on the property owners direction to have the signage enforced.

that's pretty uncommon though- we only do it in the bigger apartment complexes.

As far as I know, the old rule in the South is whoever gets there first gets the right of way. At least driving in Roanoke City it was that way.

PAmedic -

What do you know about double yellow lines? In Washington State, where I am from, it is illegal to make a left hand turn across a double yellow line. Recently, I was instructed by LU's finest to make such a turn. I was on candler's mtn. road and was prevented from turning left at the stoplight into the TRBC complex. Instead, I was instructed to make a left hand turn further down the road, across from Applebees. To make matters worse, there is a curb "island" which is clearly designed to prevent people from making such a turn. The seasoned officer swore to me that I was wrong, and that the turn was completely legal.

Here is a google map of the area. I think it should be zoomed appropriately.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 7&t=h&z=19

jbock13 wrote:As far as I know, the old rule in the South is whoever gets there first gets the right of way. At least driving in Roanoke City it was that way.

That's the way it tends to work, but technically in the Commonwealth of Virginia the person on the right has the right of way. I remember that question from the test to get my learner's permit, almost 11 years ago (so it could've changed, but typing that I feel really really old).

ATrain wrote:

jbock13 wrote:As far as I know, the old rule in the South is whoever gets there first gets the right of way. At least driving in Roanoke City it was that way.

That's the way it tends to work, but technically in the Commonwealth of Virginia the person on the right has the right of way. I remember that question from the test to get my learner's permit, almost 11 years ago (so it could've changed, but typing that I feel really really old).

Granted, I didn't learn in Virginia (THANK GOD), but you're both right. The person who arrives at the intersection first has the right of way. If the cars arrive to the intersection simultaneously, it's the person on the right who has the right of way. If the two cars are opposite each other, then the car going straight has the right of way. If they're both going straight, well then there's no problem.

But in Lynchburg, it seems to be that after a long stand-off between multiple cars at an intersection, the person who finally gets tired of waving the other driver on and loses patience finally goes, and one of the cars will inevitably let pretty much every other lane clear out before they'll finally go.

How about then entrance b/w McDonald's & Sweet Frog to the Target shopping center? Thru traffic does not stop. Yet, time after time, so many people come to a stop & wait. There's no stop sign....no white line for those going straight. It's not a 4-way stop.

Same thing going on with the "Sonic" entrance to campus. Coming over the railroad tracks onto campus...traffic does not stop. But again, so many people will sit there waiting to turn.

blwall1416 wrote:How about then entrance b/w McDonald's & Sweet Frog to the Target shopping center? Thru traffic does not stop. Yet, time after time, so many people come to a stop & wait. There's no stop sign....no white line for those going straight. It's not a 4-way stop.

Same thing going on with the "Sonic" entrance to campus. Coming over the railroad tracks onto campus...traffic does not stop. But again, so many people will sit there waiting to turn.

That's totally true, but you have to think about the other drivers, too. So many times I just have to assume that the driver in the other lane doesn't know that there's no stop sign, and if you just speed through there's a good chance you're going to get hit. Of course it'll be there fault, but I'd rather not have to deal with that.

We've harped on it so many times, but it's just really really poor design when it comes to the roads and parking lots in this area. And when you combine it with dangerously bad drivers, look out.

ATrain wrote:

jbock13 wrote:As far as I know, the old rule in the South is whoever gets there first gets the right of way. At least driving in Roanoke City it was that way.

That's the way it tends to work, but technically in the Commonwealth of Virginia the person on the right has the right of way. I remember that question from the test to get my learner's permit, almost 11 years ago (so it could've changed, but typing that I feel really really old).

It still is that way in the legal code. But yeah usually the unwritten rule is whoever gets there first.

And to answer PA Medic's question, the "stop bar" when there is none is the equal "invisible" line with the stop sign in Virginia.

alabama24 wrote:PAmedic -

What do you know about double yellow lines? In Washington State, where I am from, it is illegal to make a left hand turn across a double yellow line. Recently, I was instructed by LU's finest to make such a turn. I was on candler's mtn. road and was prevented from turning left at the stoplight into the TRBC complex. Instead, I was instructed to make a left hand turn further down the road, across from Applebees. To make matters worse, there is a curb "island" which is clearly designed to prevent people from making such a turn. The seasoned officer swore to me that I was wrong, and that the turn was completely legal.

hmmmm...

not sure @ Washington St.

here, center divider lines are used to do just that: divide lanes. You can actually still pass someone on a "double yellow" too, as long as there are no signs posted expressly forbidding passing, it is done safely, and isn't on a grade, or at/near an intersection.

in PA at least, left turns across "double yellow" lines (or any center divider without an island or other barrier) are completely legal.

to be honest, unless something is posted "DO NOT..." or "NO..." we dont normally bother anyway.

generally speaking, vehicle code doesnt vary THAT much from state to state, at least regionally. I know PA/NY/NJ are pretty close.

they have to be... otherwise you'd have people running through each other since "its legal where I come from"

not sure about the south or out west tho...

Sounds strange that is Washington you can't make a left turn across a double yellow line.

But then again, I found it odd when driving in Los Angeles that there's no such thing as a left arrow at a light...