[Sly Fox]

You knew this like to killed some of those at City Hall:

City manager apologizes to LU in permit process

Conor Reilly and Ron Brown
Lynchburg News & Advance
January 28, 2006

The handling of a Liberty University building permit application by city planning and building officials prompted an apology earlier this month from Lynchburg City Manager Kimball Payne.

At issue was a requirement from the city’s Technical Review Committee that LU pay to have fencing along both sides of a pedestrian bridge that crosses U.S. 460.

The report lists the pedestrian improvements to the bridge along with other requirements that LU must meet in order to obtain building permits for five new dormitories.

Jerry Falwell Jr., a lawyer and LU’s vice chancellor, cried foul.

In an e-mail to city officials and officials at the Virginia Department of Transportation, which maintains the bridge, he said it is illegal for the city to link the bridge improvements to obtaining the building permits.

Payne addressed that point in a Jan. 17 letter to Falwell.

“You are exactly right on the legal principle that the city cannot require pedestrian improvements as a condition of site plan approval for the new student dormitories,” Payne wrote. “To the extent that staff overstepped its authority in the matter, I apologize.”

Falwell said the city cannot require the pedestrian improvements to a public thoroughfare and not provide the money to complete the work.

Traffic Engineer Gerry Harter was the city staffer who said fencing was necessary on the bridge.

But he said the comments were a “strong suggestion” to get the point across, not a requirement.

“This has to be done or somebody’s going to get hurt,” Harter said. “Especially now that they’re adding new dorms.”

The Technical Review Committee, a group of city staff that oversees the permit process, spelled out the pedestrian bridge requirement in a Dec. 28 report.

“Pedestrian facilities need to be provided across Liberty Mountain Drive and the bridge across 460,” the report said.

Falwell said he appreciates Payne’s apology, but said the incident reflects a broader issue.

He said the city is using the building permit process as a tool to extract public corridor improvements from private developers.

“I don’t think most citizens would have recognized the improper nature of the requirements that were placed on Liberty,” Falwell said.

“I think it’s a back-door tax. We’re having to do improvements to the public infrastructure that would normally be done by the government.”

He said the dormitory projects are clearly separate from improvements to the bridge.

“The pedestrian improvements that were being required are on public property,” he said. “Those improvements are not part of the dormitory projects.”

City Attorney Walter Erwin acknowledged that the city has no legal authority to require a developer to pay for improvements in order to obtain a permit.

Erwin, who was not part of the technical review process, said city staff was “recommending” the improvements.

“There’s a difference between recommending and requiring,” he said.

That distinction was not spelled out in the report sent to Falwell.

The appropriate place for the city to require improvements is when a developer is seeking to change the zoning of a property.

In this case, the proper zoning was already granted by the city.

“Most developers believe the local governments have powers they don’t have,” Falwell said.

He said if the zoning is correct and the requirements of the building code are met, a permit ought to be issued.

“Someone inexperienced in these matters doesn’t stand a chance,” he said. “You’ve got to defend your rights or they will take you to the cleaners.”

Harter said something still needs to be done on the bridge. New dorms mean more students using the bridge, which he said is unsafe.

And since it’s LU students creating the pedestrian traffic, it’s LU who should have to pay.

“I don’t think the city should pay even though we’ve been the most vocal,” Harter said.

“We don’t own the road and we’re not generating the foot traffic. I’m not sure why we’d be saddled with that.”

http://www.newsadvance.com/servlet/Sate ... 5454&path=

[El Scorcho]

Jr. is too cool for school. And that's all I have to say about that.

[PAmedic]

I just read that online in the fishwrap and was gonna post it under the heading "WOW- WRITE THIS ONE DOWN"

ya beat me to it.

[TallyW]

Technically Jr. is right.... Ethically??? Dunno

I completely get where Jerry Jr. is going with it but c'mon... the city is right... We bought land and we built stuff on both sides of that road. Now that we own the Ericson property there is next to no traffic on that side of Candler's Mountain that is not generated by Liberty U. Beyond what is legal... how about what is safe? I'd assume we could easily afford to put some fencing up (basically a protective cage for foot traffic so that students would be safe.

So yeah... Jerry Jr. you did a good job on the Law.... LU, we may want to look at this as a matter of safety. Either fix it ourselves or demand the city put it up. Don't play ping pong with them in emails to get more dorms up

Some fun problems to have though....

[jimflamesfan]

The city should put up the fencing. LU doesn't own the bridge...if the city thinks its necessary, then they should put it up and pay for it...a lot of LU graduates still live in Lynchburg and pay taxes as well. And all of the students LU brings in pay sales tax. Otherwise, It would be like the city saying, LU students use Ward's Road the most, so they should pay to have it repaved.

The city thinks its necessary, but they won't pay for it.

I have rollerbladed on that bridge that they are referring too...it is SCARY to rollerblade on, I would duck so that if I fell on the gravel I wouldn't fall off the bridge.

(how much is security fencing anyway...it's just that cheap green plastic like metal stuff, and a couple of poles and bolts).

[PAmedic]

Guys, the issue is NOT whether fencing is necessary, morally or otherwise, or merited to begin with. The fact is the city was attempting to strong arm the developer of a PRIVATE construction project into upgrading portions of a PUBLIC roadway, holding the applicable building permits hostage in the interim. Municipalities attempt this all the time, and its COMPLETELY illegal. So are "impact fees", used to suck extra money outta developers to pay for parks, etc that the city couldn't otherwise afford, but really want.

Imagine you apply for a permit to put up a fence in your front yard ($15.00 my township, FYI) and you are told you have to pay for a traffic light at the intersection IFO your property.

Its bad business, and LU had every right to protest, and clear legal ground to stand upon. I am SURE that BEFORE it becomes a case of students hurtling to their deaths on a daily basis- fencing will be constructed.

[Hold My Own]

I dont know HOW or WHY it's a Moral or Ethics issue but whatever...bottom line is LU prob. will do something about this, but LU is sick and tired of Lynchburg City telling them everything that they will be doing...ie.

LU was clearing off the land for the Dorms up on East Campus...and Rachal Flynn (sp?) calls Jerry up telling him that they will not cut down any trees that they did not need to cut down, telling them BY LAW they wont....make a long story short Jerry Jr. called her up letting him know she must not have been aware of the law that if you own over a certain amount of land your allowed to timber as much as you want (Jerry also said he was going to cut down even more than originally planned and make furniture b/c of her, she got under his skin b/c of past issues)

Lynchburg tries to flex on LU twice a day, its just a matter of respect, Lynchburg City acts like Liberty is lucky to be here and doesnt recognize anything that LU brings to the city

The lynchburg City Manager is a great man, I know him personally and he's done a lot for the city and me personally, it's nice to see him step up and apologize, hopefully this is a new relationship from here on out between LU and the City...steps are being taken from both sides and pride has to be swallowed from both sides

[TallyW]

So yeah... Jerry Jr. you did a good job on the Law.... LU, we may want to look at this as a matter of safety. Either fix it ourselves or demand the city put it up. Don't play ping pong with them in emails to get more dorms up

Some fun problems to have though....

Hey Guys... calm down...

I acknowledged earlier that Jerry was right on the law...I have no beef with the issue or even his response legally... I only speak to whether or not we'll address the safety concern pointed out in the document.

I said it becomes ethical when there is a safety issue at hand and we refuse to put up a fence. Yes we were right to be sure it wasn't tied into the new dorms... but lets be real about this... you're adding thousands to that mountain each year... I'm okay with the city saying "You should consider adding a fence" Besides... I believe if you read the article it mentions that the paperwork had already gone through when Jerry Jr. recieived an email "suggesting" these revisions... "Erwin, who was not part of the technical review process, said city staff was “recommending” the improvements. “There’s a difference between recommending and requiring,” he said. That distinction was not spelled out in the report sent to Falwell. The appropriate place for the city to require improvements is when a developer is seeking to change the zoning of a property. In this case, the proper zoning was already granted by the city."

So this story seems to be much about nothing. Jerry got a report listing some things that LU needed to do to finish the approval process. One of which was this fencing. Jerry catches it and says "Whoa...." and sends an email in to the city. The guy at the city says "yep, you're right... that shouldn't have happened... I'm sorry that this guy overstepped his bounds on that issue." Then the issue is over... done... finished.

Somehow though two reporters get this story online today. Hmmmmm. The article starts out "The handling of a Liberty University building permit application by city planning and building officials prompted an apology earlier this month from Lynchburg City Manager Kimball Payne."

By the way... yes cities all across the country do this. I don't blame them. These interactions are times to address issues with developers. You do realize that these new dorms (all of them) are being built by an outside developer who is leasing them to LU for 5 years and giving LU the option to buy them at that point... The city is technically going after a developer in this case. We (LU) have the land so Jerry Jr. is involved but it's standard for cities to seek improvements from developers.

Our city (Chesapeake, VA) is a fast growing town and every school in the city has about 40 portable trailers outside where ball fields used to be. The schools are overcrowded and the developers continue to build without much care for what they leave behind. They buy a ton of land... develop it with high density family housing and sell it off. They then take their cash and go home to country living while the elected officials deal with picking up the trash, fixing roads, providing clean water, keeping citizens safe, and yes providing education for all of the new kids.

It's a game. It happens. We have to deal with it. It's a fact of life. LU needs to keep doing what's in their best interest and the elected officials need to do what's in the best interest for the entire city.

For every complaint we have today about dealing with the city there are 10 issues that LU dragged their feet on in the past. I love LU and completely support the administration... I'm just also pretty pragmatic about the fact that there are things we can do to 1. Keep people safe and 2. Remain a great citizen to the rest of the people who call Lynchburg home.

Just because we're the biggest game in town doesn't mean we should ignore the guys downtown who try to do the best job they can. Believe me, they all know where their tax base comes from. Here's another idea... get some LU grads in elected office around there and we may have a nicer relationship with the city of Lynchburg. As someone pointed out, a lot of our classmates call the 'burg home....

[El Scorcho]

TallyW: You've got to admit Lynchburg has made some pretty unfair and nasty moves toward TRBC and LU in the past few years. While this might actually be a minor issue, getting an apology from them on anything is kind of nice. Has everyone already forgotten the debacle over us getting the Ericcsson facility?

Additionally, in my opinion, City Council has been trying some rather gruff strongarm tactics in the last few years as well. Especially since Rachel Flynn arrived. (Ex: The new sign ordinance.) They seem bored more than they seemed concerned for the city. (Ex: Dropping the cash to tear up perfectly good intersections and replace them with pseudo-historic cobblestone ones downtown.) For whatever reason, they always seem to come down on whatever side of the issue will cause the most drama in the press, not the side that's necessarily best for Lynchburg.

[TallyW]

For whatever reason, they always seem to come down on whatever side of the issue will cause the most drama in the press, not the side that's necessarily best for Lynchburg.

Somehow I doubt the city called the papers and leaked the info weeks after the exchange. Our friends knew how to play this up to put a favor or two in the bank I'm certain. What's funny is that the story never mentions any other of the required upgrades/repairs needed for the permit. It say that this issue was one in a list but no one denies that there are other legit concerns the city had.

Yes I give you the fact that the city has been pushy... but so has LU and the Doc. He always boasts about how there aren't as many liquor stores and gentlemans clubs, etc. in Lynchburg.... in his book he talked about going to the Council and saying 'if you let this place have a liquor license, I'll make sure every one of your private businesses is forced to close." Is that not strong-arming?

So, again I say aloud, I support Dr. Falwell and LU on these things... but the reaction that somehow this is absurd... I can't buy it

[El Scorcho]

Is that not strong-arming?

It is, but it's strong-arming by the people, not the government. Of, by and for. That's how I see it. When government is acting in it's own best interest, not the people's, that's when I get upset. I'm not saying they were doing that this time, because that would be silly. My point is that in the past, and on other issues, Lynchburg City Council has been extremely self-serving.

And, my comment about the press drama wasn't about this particular issue. It was a general statement about their behavior over the past few years.

[LUconn]

...and Rachal Flynn (sp?) calls Jerry up telling him that they will not cut down any trees that they did not need to cut down,

She's got an axe to grind. For whatever reason, she doesn't like JFM, Jerry, or LU. She does whatever she can to annoy our progress. She doesn't even live in Lynchburg from what I understand, but she tries to make all of these obnoxious rules for developers and the like, pretty much to discourage the areas growth. I'm sure she's just trying to make the area look pretty (ie the whole sign fiasco) but she's really just an idiot. How she got into power is beyond me. It must not be an elected position.

[nickrichard]

I think the easier way to solve this is to think ahead. What if a student were to fall off, who would get sued? CIty or LU or both? They should be working together (quickly) to solve this, especially considering the amount of students that pass over this bridge daily.

[Hold My Own]

...and Rachal Flynn (sp?) calls Jerry up telling him that they will not cut down any trees that they did not need to cut down,

She's got an axe to grind. For whatever reason, she doesn't like JFM, Jerry, or LU. She does whatever she can to annoy our progress. She doesn't even live in Lynchburg from what I understand, but she tries to make all of these obnoxious rules for developers and the like, pretty much to discourage the areas growth. I'm sure she's just trying to make the area look pretty (ie the whole sign fiasco) but she's really just an idiot. How she got into power is beyond me. It must not be an elected position.

They had a run in over a few little things and Jerry called her out on national TV saying how he cant understand how someone can try to run a city but lives an hour away from that city (C-ville) and their great relationship started there...

I agree, I think it's one thing for a person to strong arm, heck America was built on the fact that you have the right to...but when the Gov't teams up and tries to strong arm someone I think it's different

[Sly Fox]

I personally don't care for this attitude of the city that any roads or bridges used primarily by the school should be paid for by LU. If you think about it, every street or bridge is primarily used by the business or home nearby. That's why we have municiapl governments to pay for things collectively.

[Guest]

By the way... yes cities all across the country do this. I don't blame them.

ITS ILLEGAL.

don't care that "everyone is doing it"

thats a very common liberal, "government is always right", "we should just shut up and do what we're told because they know best" attitude.

ITS ILLEGAL.

[PAmedic]

sorry- computer logged me out

By the way... yes cities all across the country do this. I don't blame them.

ITS ILLEGAL.

don't care that "everyone is doing it"

thats a very common liberal, "government is always right", "we should just shut up and do what we're told because they know best" attitude.

ITS ILLEGAL.

[TallyW]

PAMEDIC,
It's not illegal to require "proffers". That is what they are called. There is a name. Watch your local cable access of your city government. Every city has a board that reviews zoning and building issues. Most of the time they are attempting to keep development within a master plan and within established safety, infastructure and planning guidelines. This isn't illegal. It's called "planning".

Go back and read the article. The article mentions that there is an appropraite time for these discussions. I know a little about this so I'm willing to stick my neck out on this one. It's absolutely WITHIN THE RIGHT of the city's elected officials to say "nope... you won't be building that here and not supporting infastructure" or "nope, you won't be building that and leaving bad sight lines--- add trees to the project" or "nope, you won't be building that there, contribute to an intersection or else you can't have that exit in that location." Developers don't have some sort of blank check that gives them the right to throw up anything they want anytime or anywhere they want. I'm not sure if you understand that. Development is a controlled process for everyone's sake. You also should realize that zoning boards and building standards boards, etc. are all unpaid citizens. Not a mysterious government"

The other thing you need to keep in mind... There is no such thing as "The Government" in our country. We live in a country where YOU are the Government. It's called Democracy. The citizens vote you into office. This isn't China or Cuba... If you don't like how certain elected officials perform in their jobs, unseat them. I think we understand that Dr. Falwell would spend more time and energy trying to unseat these people if he really felt that their beef was completely 100% out of line. But no. He doesn't try to take them out. He knows that some of these fights are growing pains, not personal attacks. This kind of back and forth is expected in every city. Ask any developer. Regardless of emotion, it's not illegal.

Lastly... You don't help your cause by trying to slap people with labels... "thats a very common liberal, "government is always right""
To toss out 'liberal' or 'conservative' is rediculous... just discuss what's at hand and string a few thoughts together. Don't call names.

It's the sign of a weak argument when you have to call names to silent the discussion. I still like ya though

[Sly Fox]

Forgive my ignorance, but aren't City Managers paid employees who are not elected in Virginia?

Interesting discussion BTW. I live in the one major city in America that doesn't have zoning.

[TallyW]

Sly,
Yes... City Managers are usually a paid employee. Guess who their boss is? City Council. So even better. They may not run every 2-4 years but their bosses do. From the Lynchburg City website "Appointed by the City Council, the City Manager serves as the chief executive officer of the municipal corporation." Link: http://www.ci.lynchburg.va.us/home/index.asp?page=72

Sly... Houston has zoning... they may not use it much , but apparently they have it. This is from your city government website:
http://www.houstontx.gov/codes/codes33-1to4.pdf It's the 33rd chapter in your "Code of Ordinances"

[/url]

[PAmedic]

TALLY- I don't know you so I can't really say if I like you, but there are obvious differences in our communities. As I am active in local gov't, I can assure you that most of what you just stated is NOT APPLICABLE HERE.

we do not have "proffers", or payoffs, or extortion for your local town manager's idea of a really cool water park, or whatever else you chose to call these strong arm tactics.

we pay our local government officials to manage, according to offical, legal zoning and building code.

God bless ya if you run your towns differently, but thats not how it works everywhere else.

agree to disagree on this one I guess.

[PAmedic]

and you really think that the anti-developer, anti-capitalism bandwagon ISN'T a major tenent of the liberal platform? PUHLEEZ

* now that I re-read all this, its pretty funny that we're getting into a knock down , drag out over zoning regulations! only on this board!

[TallyW]

PAmedic... I can say I like you b/c I've read a lot of your posts and I haven't seen anything that would make me dislike you. That's a general rule for life... I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt... especially on an Alumni site to a school where I've met thousands along the way and I generally enjoy most of the people... Anyway...

We can agree to disagree although I'm certain I could show you where your town uses proffers. They are not extortions or payoffs... they are adjustments to the contract. The city basically approves your application with certain agreements. Every city uses them and developers are aware that they will provide them. Otherwise the developer who is trying to get the most bang for his buck will usually strip the land for what it's worth and walk away... the Council (and/or) boards and commissions are there to ensure the city is better with each project, not worse. Proffers are used to balance the impact of each new applicant's development. Cities usually don't operate with a lot of fat so they usually can't afford to constantly run ahead of new development... Proffers are used to balance that out. It's not illegal, immoral, extortionist or wrong.... it's a dance. One that any homeowner goes through when purchasing your home. You submit an offer to the owner with "proffers"... you say "I'll pay full price if you throw in the refrigerator, curtains and do the closing on this ___ date." Any counter proposal will include proffers as well. "I accept your offer as long as you ____"

It's a negotiation and it's okay. I'll quit beating this dead horse unless a different person/topic comes up about it. Take care Medic.

[Sly Fox]

I can admit I have never really given this topic much thought. Thanks for the different perspective, tally.

Most of my experience with these planning commissions has been negative covering cities dealing with stadium issues. They tend to be made up of shortsighted people more interested in keep their propoerty taxes down than progress. But I know that is is blanket generalization.

As for Lynchburg, the city has a longstanding animosity toward LU that cannot be denied. And that's why the apology was noteworthy no matter what the surrounding circumstances may have been.

[TallyW]

Sly...
Having lived south of you in Corpus for a few years... i know what you mean with short sided leadership... lately it seems they are coming around.... it looked to me to be a cultural thing in Corpus though... now they have a new baseball team and stadium as well as opera hall and civic arena.... they're finally thinking ahead down there.... growth is expected and vital to cities... they should expect it and plan for it.