LUconn wrote:matshark wrote:that, after all, is WHY gov'ts were first formed by people
That's most likely debatable. But I'm no expert in ancient history, which you'd have to be. I would guess the earliest forms of government weren't the most friendly to those that it governed.
matshark wrote:(this is after all why we formed our own country in the first place)
That's kind of a stretch. It's probably A reason. But like reason #500.
LUconn, I disagree and here's why... (If you've read Thomas Paine's Common Sense it pretty much outlines it right there) You have a group of people living by themselves, they do everything, provide their own food, shelter, protection, etc... That's an awful lot of things for each person to do for themselves - so much so that they affect how well they can do each of the others because each extra responsibility takes away from how effective they can be at the others. What is the most pressing and basic need? Security. What good is having food, economy and industry, if there is no security? You do all that work and someone comes along and takes it from you (if they don't kill you or turn you into a slave in the process). Anytime you place a responsibility on an entity, you lose that degree of control over that part of your life. (Why? because you are only free to the degree to which you take responsibility for your life)
Now, if security is the most pressing issue facing each of this group of individuals (and it detracts from the ability they have to focus on other responsibilities), why would they meet together (i.e. form a govt) to delegate any other responsibilities if the most pressing issue of security is not addressed? Will they delegate responsibilities and quotas for the planting and harvest or the manufacture of carts if they are not secure in their persons? NO! They are each able to look after that themselves, but the defense of the group is something that cannot be done on an individual basis alone. It takes a concerted effort of co-operation. (And any co-operative agreement between a group of people that governs how they live their lives IS a government) They are saying, this person and this person are absolved of their responsibilities for planting, hunting, harvesting, manufacturing, etc... and instead have the sole responsibilities of protecting our group.
Next, re: us forming our own country for security... no, it was not reason #500... If you read the Declaration of Independence, it's a veritable indictment of the King of England on the basis that he prevented the colonists from being secure in their persons and property and in fact propagated acts of violence against them in abridgment of their rights.
Cases in point:
"He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people."
"He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power."
"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever."
"He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions."
These are the reasons why our Founding Fathers LEFT the control of England and forged their own government. It was to protect themselves from the violent advances (and indeed abuses) of an outside enemy. It was to make the people secure in their persons and in their property; to let them endeavor in industry as they best saw fit - without fear of being destroyed by their enemies.
You don't have to be an expert in ancient history, merely capable of reading between the lines of history in general and understanding more than simply what was happening, but WHY it was happening.
