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By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#261612
Read this article from a couple days ago on The American Thinker. Very well written, then I got down to the bottom and saw that the author, Stuart Schwartz, is a faculty member at LU. Anyways, thought I'd post it here for your consumption.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/ ... berry.html
The same-sex marriage battle now being fought can best be described by a twist on a Homer Simpson toast: Here's to power, the cause of -- and solution to -- all life's problems!


The same-sex marriage push is not about sex, culture or, especially, loving relationships. It is about power, pure and simple, another front in the war of our elites on Judeo-Christian traditions. The goal for President Obama and the Saul Alinsky left, as James Lewis notes, is to "overturn whatever exists today in the raw pursuit of (its) own power."


Our Knowledge Elites -- those that shape our culture through media, education, and government -- seek ultimate authority over our thoughts and behavior. However, first they must rid us of the singularly American and Judeo-Christian notion of "inherent and inalienable rights" accorded to individuals by...uh, God (I know: cringe-inducing to Obama Democrats who view liberalism as religion). They replace "God says" with government says, Obama says, politicians say, educators say, and other such higher powers.


They view themselves as competing with God, who established marriage as a committed relationship between a man and a woman. As laughable as that statement is to our elites, it is truth in a world where some of our most respected scientists have concluded that we seem to be "hard-wired for God." Judeo-Christian traditions rest on a foundation of right and wrong, accompanied by many shades of gray addressed with the aid of generalized scriptural principles. Rascal Flatts, the country group with a strong Christian foundation, summed up the real issue in plaintive lyrics reflecting on the direction in which our elites are pushing us, "I miss Mayberry... where everything is black and white."............
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By BJWilliams
Registration Days Posts
#261619
He was my professor for Mass Communications Writing. It was interesting getting into non class related discussions in there with him. Good read on the article.
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#261620
That article is crap. I'd tear it apart on here, but it would require quite the lengthy post that most people on here wouldn't take the time to read.
By LUconn
Registration Days Posts
#261623
Oh don't use that as an excuse. It's not that long of an article. It shouldn't take a novel to "tear it apart".
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#261632
LUconn wrote:Oh don't use that as an excuse. It's not that long of an article. It shouldn't take a novel to "tear it apart".
*sigh*-ok then, look for my treatsie by midnight tonight
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#261640
The same-sex marriage battle now being fought can best be described by a twist on a Homer Simpson toast: Here's to power, the cause of -- and solution to -- all life's problems!


The same-sex marriage push is not about sex, culture or, especially, loving relationships. It is about power, pure and simple, another front in the war of our elites on Judeo-Christian traditions. The goal for President Obama and the Saul Alinsky left, as James Lewis notes, is to "overturn whatever exists today in the raw pursuit of (its) own power."
Hmm, let me see, so they're willing to make a commitment to another person based on power? Umm, yeah...NOT. As a gay man (yes, I am gay, homosexual, whatever title you want to put on it...I'm no longer a student or employed by LU, therefore I'm finally coming out of the closet as the phrase goes), first I find it appalling that there is an overwhelming belief that I cannot have a healthy, normal relationship with another dude. However, with that said, the quest for gay marriage isn't about power, its about being able to legally have a partnership recognized on the same grounds as my heterosexual counterparts. No one is trying to force anyone to marry someone else outside their will.
Our Knowledge Elites -- those that shape our culture through media, education, and government -- seek ultimate authority over our thoughts and behavior. However, first they must rid us of the singularly American and Judeo-Christian notion of "inherent and inalienable rights" accorded to individuals by...uh, God (I know: cringe-inducing to Obama Democrats who view liberalism as religion). They replace "God says" with government says, Obama says, politicians say, educators say, and other such higher powers.
Look at that phrase "inherent and inalienable rights," which, in the words of Thomas Jefferson, are the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursit of happiness." (originially was going to be pursuit of property). Now, I wish many people on my side who argue for gay marriage would argue for the right to life for the unborn, which I consider to be a far greater issue than gay marriage, but really, how is gay marriage infringing on any of those rights for YOU? If I were to go to Maine, Iowa, Connecticut or Massachusetts and marry a dude, would any of you die or somehow not be able to live anymore? Would your liberties somehow be limited? Would you be less happy?
They view themselves as competing with God, who established marriage as a committed relationship between a man and a woman. As laughable as that statement is to our elites, it is truth in a world where some of our most respected scientists have concluded that we seem to be "hard-wired for God." Judeo-Christian traditions rest on a foundation of right and wrong, accompanied by many shades of gray addressed with the aid of generalized scriptural principles. Rascal Flatts, the country group with a strong Christian foundation, summed up the real issue in plaintive lyrics reflecting on the direction in which our elites are pushing us, "I miss Mayberry... where everything is black and white."
Oh yes, I am competing with God, as if in a tennis match at Wimbledon. Here he is subscribing to a view that having a committed, homosexual relationship is biblically wrong. I disagree with that view, obviously. Yes, I believe in God, I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, that He physically existed here on earth, was crucified and the blood that He shed is the only acceptable sacrifice for mine (and everyone else's) sins. However, there are many people who disagree that homosexuality and Christianity are at odds, however that is another issue that can be addressed shortly.

Secondly, in this country, the government does not endorse religion, as it is written in the Constitution. If there is a reason, besides religous, that homosexual marriage should be forbidden, then feel free to argue it.
Both God and Rascal Flatts agree: there is truth. And, in the marriage debate, this is truth: by any standard, heterosexual relationships tend to work better than the alternatives. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, God is not simply a transcendental homophobe who gets his kicks from zapping the satellite feed for cable's "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." Rather, he's the guy who -- having designed this place -- helps us live a life that works. Homosexuality -- like other behaviors, attitudes or values contrary to his guide to living, the Bible -- generally does not work.
Again, to say that homosexuality is not a part of God's design is another debate. You can argue that its a choice all you want, but I would like to know when anyone on here deliberately chose to be attracted to the opposite sex? Attraction is not a light switch that you can turn on and off, unfortunately. Also, you can argue that its unnatural and quote Romans 1:26-28 to me all you want to about how its unnatural, but there are examples of homosexuality in nature: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

Also, notice the phrase "generally does not work." In GNED, generalization is a logical fallacy. Points off for that one.
Blame God or Charles Darwin (if you believe the latter got us to this point), but that is the conclusion of decades of scientific and medical research. Life expectancy for "gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men," concluded Canadian medical researchers. Lifestyle makes a difference, as homosexual men, are more involved in "rape, incest...sexual sadism and masochism" and are prone to "dehumanized sexual activity, sexual dysfunctions; (and) depressive disorders and panic attacks." They are significantly less healthy, both mentally and physically, than heterosexuals and more likely to experience personality disorders. A study reported in the American Journal of Public health found more than two-thirds of homosexual men reported use of illicit drugs with "serious health and social consequences". The National Household Survey of Drug Abuse sums it up:


"... alcoholism and drug abuse continue to affect lesbians, gay men, and transgendered persons at two to three times the rate of the general population."


Gay is not happy, to paraphrase the t-shirt banned by a suburban Chicago public school district during its celebration of homosexuality. A University of Minnesota medical school study showed that 28% of bisexual/homosexual males reported suicide attempts compared to 4% of heterosexual males, concluding there is "a strong association between suicide risk and bisexuality or homosexuality in males."
First, life expectancy ranges are going to vary no matter what group you're comparing. Secondly, I do not know any gay guys who have been involved in those things, and the source he is listing those statistics are nearly 20 years old. My prof in GNED told me that the stats he used 6 years ago were from that book, and he knew that they were "probably slightly exaggerated then and grossly exaggerated today," (e-mail with GNED prof I won't name, March 2004). Thirdly, being gay/homosexual doesn't make you more likely to use drugs. Americans as a whole use illegal drugs at more than two-to-three times rate as the Dutch, the difference being their country has more liberal drug policies: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/ ... 2322.shtml

Fourthly, there is a greater suicide risk in homosexuals, but that is probably due to the way society views and treats gays in general. For example, a student at LU who just graduated was kicked out of his parents house (and his parents are involved at LU) and is no longer welcome to even sit foot inside their home, despite wanting to change, "praying for a miracle" to be attracted to women. Its acceptable to use "gay" to describe something that one thinks is stupid or idiotic. I myself have had people stop speaking to me because, as the topic was brought up by them, I mentioned that I "struggled with homosexuality," which somehow was so much greater than their "struggles with pornography," or "trying not to sin anymore with the girlfriend," that it justified a Facebook note saying that "I want to have fellowship with you, but a moral wall breaks our fellowship." Or the one person, who I'm close to and found out I was gay and talked with me about it but "didn't change anything," one time said "Just the rumors of Roger Federer being gay make me think differently of him." My senior year, it was nearly fashionable for a guy to confess he "struggled with lust" or "struggled with pornography," and everyone would praise him for being "So brave as to admit it in front of everyone,” yet “struggle with same-sex attraction,” and suddenly people you were close to treat you as an outcast. Is it any wonder, with treatment like that, plus the fear of losing close friends, possibly being disowned by family, and the constant condemning from the pulpit, that gays feel conflicted inside and have a ton of inner turmoil that could lead to suicide? Prayers for Bobby would be a good movie to watch concerning that issue.

And I will also say that the vast majority of my close friends at LU have also apologized profusely for anything if they had said anything that had hurt me.

Our Knowledge Elites frequently cite Europe, which has been mainstreaming homosexuality for more than half a century, as an example of enlightened sexual relationships. But culture, the sum of collective action, has consequences: between 10% and 20% of children in Europe are sexually assaulted, with those rates at least doubling, sometimes tripling in nations such as Netherlands and Belgium, where homosexuality is actively celebrated. By comparison, in the more traditional United States, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services reports that child abuse hovers between 1% and 2% of American children. The World Health Organization has found that gays incur greater risk of sexually transmitted diseases, suicide, and violent behavior. And in comparison to conventional marriages, same-sex partnerships experience more domestic violence.
Here, the 10-20% comes from mostly former Soviet nations, and the statistics start from 10 years ago at best. I will concede that there is a greater STD rate among homosexuals, and as for domestic violence, the quote from his source is "Domestic violence appears to be more frequently reported in same-sex partnerships than among the married," however my mom who works for social services has said that the vast majority of domestic violence in married relationships goes unreported, and there is evidence to back that up, but I'll have to find it and post it later.
This level of dysfunction often plays out in public. American Thinker's Kyle-Anne Shiver compares the behavior of gay activists in the public arena to "Bull Conner on a rampage with his fire hoses." But the fire hoses are not only manned by gays. The mainstream left delights in hosing down traditionalists. If it were about compassion, traditional marriage advocates would not be consistently ridiculed in the mainstream media. And if it were about truth, then Obama senior advisor David Axelrod would not have recently joked that one of the names considered for the president's new dog was "Miss California," referring to beauty contestant Carrie Prejean, who suffered withering attacks (judge: you're a "dumb b----") after expressing polite support for traditional marriage. He ridiculed her despite having the same position as the president, putting the evangelical Christian "in a context that's meant to be belittling."
I think if our professor spent time browsing some of the gay message boards, he would've seen that a large majority of homosexuals defended her right to say what she said, and that they regarded Perez Hilton as nothing more than a "drama queen." Also, it is interesting to note that the professor implies that Obama is for gay marriage in the opening of this article, but then states here that he and Miss California have the same position on gay marriage.
It is about power...and the rhetorical fire hose is the chief weapon. Same-sex marriage advocates use the issue as a platform to expand political control, all the while demonizing those who disagree. Tradition-minded Christians, for example, have been consistently and venomously portrayed in the media as bigots and fanatics intent on enslaving multicultural America (culture commentator and columnist Michael Medved saw this coming almost two decades ago in his groundbreaking Hollywood vs. America). The Washington Post has portrayed the poisonously anti-homosexual (and renegade serially denounced by evangelical denominations) Westboro Baptist Church as representative of fundamentalist Christianity.


Meanwhile, ignored is the actual position of the overwhelming majority of traditional Christians. Their views are best summed up by R.C. Sproul, the prolific Christian author and heavyweight theologian: It is clear that God calls Christians


"to be gracious people....We need to let people know that, whether we approve or disapprove of their lifestyle, we are for them as people. ...You can do more for people by loving them."
Here he is saying the vast majority of Christians are being ignored, just as he has been ignoring the vast majority of gay marriage opponents. I can promise you, that most of the other gay people I know think people should be allowed to say what they want, do what they want, believe what they want. However, in this article he seems to paint us as trying to demonize the church.
And love was what Dr. Jerry Falwell, a favorite target of ridicule by elites, was about on this issue. Best-selling author and columnist Ann Coulter, who knew him, decried his demonization by the left and, especially, the gay community. Talk to him, she said, and you will find a man who "exuded Christian love for all men, hating sin while loving sinners."


In Mayberry, results count and compassion dominates. Its Judeo-Christian culture is described by columnist and radio talk host Dennis Prager as "the finest value system in the world (if) you care about goodness, justice and compassion prevailing in an often evil, unjust and cruel world." Compassion has compelled many Christian, Mormon and Jewish organizations to offer counseling services to assist individual gays in addressing relational issues. And what about the members of the gay community who have found love, fulfillment and commitment within a homosexual relationship? The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry counsels "wisdom, grace, and love." In other words, God bless -- and may you continue to enjoy a peace and commitment that defies the odds.
Do I believe our founder hated anyone? No, I do not. However, there have been times when he should've put his foot in his mouth and shut up or thought about better ways to say some of the things he said (i.e. his 9-11 comments).

Secondly, note the ending on that...he is admitting that it is possible to have a normal, homosexual relationship. The majority of gay guys desire that. While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake (and we do more damage to ourselves with the gay pride weekends, which are nothing more than flagrant exhibitionistic acts that help enforce that image), I promise you there are many of us out there who are not like that at all, yet that is what the church...and, mainstream media to an extent, seem to portray us as.
However, those who believe science and God's word go hand-in-hand on this issue find themselves under attack in President Obama's nation. Obeying the law is not enough; you must think the way we do for, David Limbaugh notes, "there is just one acceptable viewpoint" even when the evidence suggests otherwise, as it does with homosexuality and same-sex marriage.


The gay issue is a microcosm of a larger set of issues. It is not about solving problems, or individual peace and fulfillment. It is about control...achieved by destroying Mayberry.
Here, he is again implying that Obama is for gay marriage, despite specifcally saying that Obama is for keeping marriage heterosexual. Secondly, his evidence has been shown to be flawed. Finally, I'm not aware of any missiles we've fired that are headed towards Mayberry, NC :P
By LUconn
Registration Days Posts
#261645
*redacted*
Last edited by LUconn on January 15th, 2020, 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By PAmedic
Registration Days Posts
#261648
ATRAIN with quite possibly the bravest post ever on FF.COM
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By flamesfilmguy
Registration Days Posts
#261650
Atrian, While i disagree with some of your stances... well most of them, I took the time to read the whole thing and if I had more time(I might later) i'll start more discussion. I'm really interested on your views about that second part you said you'd bring up later. Saying all that I have gay friends and while most of them are very much different(not as level headed as you are) than you in your approach to this subject its nice to see someone who can have a discussion about this in a civil fashion.
By 4everfsu
Registration Days Posts
#261651
I guess that is one way to look at it
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By flamesfilmguy
Registration Days Posts
#261652
LC- I agree that its a choice in lifestyle but having talked with a few guys who have struggled with homosexual attractions there is some difficulty in changing it. It was once described to me by a guy (who is now a heterosexual) "its not like a switch you turn on and off... you are going through times when you are younger and those tendencies are hidden and a secret so it becomes sort of a "Habit" for lack of a better term because its never spoeken about it just goes on and as most of us know habits are hard to shy away from. especially when people like that have no support from loved ones." I'll agree I don't think God "creates people" to be Gay and people who aren't.
By LUconn
Registration Days Posts
#261654
*redacted*
Last edited by LUconn on January 15th, 2020, 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By El Scorcho
Registration Days Posts
#261660
ATrain wrote:While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake...
What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.
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By bigsmooth
Registration Days Posts
#261664
atrain, i commend you for your honesty and having the guts to come out. though i do disagree with your views, you are still a friend. that will not change.
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#261665
El Scorcho wrote:
ATrain wrote:While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake...
What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.

Image

I've been wanting to use that for a few days now.
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By PAmedic
Registration Days Posts
#261700
El Scorcho wrote:
ATrain wrote:While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake...
What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.
you run out of nylons in about a week
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By matshark
Registration Days Posts
#261701
well, must be nice to be out after 4 years in the closet old friend : )
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#261714
El Scorcho wrote:
ATrain wrote:While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake...
What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.
Because its not an accurate representation of everyone or even most gay guys. Yes, there are quite a bit caught up in doing that, and it gets flaunted publicly during pride...and that annoys me, they are doing more harm than good, playing right into the image that the conservative right loves to project, when there are a ton of us out there that are nothing like that at all. There are many heterosexuals that are the same way, but I digress.

Its probably the same frustration many on here feel (myself included) when evangelical Christians are portrayed as narrow minded, holier-than-thou bigots who condemn everyone to hell. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what reactions to expect to this post, but it is a relief to finally be out and see that even though I'm not agreed with (didn't expect to be), at least I'm not disowned.

And LUConn, you are correct, it has always been and always will be my choice who I'm in bed with, but what inspires to get in that bed isn't, if you catch my drift :wink: Oh yeah, it was also Rachel Dawes who originally said it was what we do that defines us.
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By El Scorcho
Registration Days Posts
#261719
ATrain wrote:
El Scorcho wrote:
ATrain wrote:While the homosexual lifestyle is portrayed as one where we're all caught up into going to clubs, dressing in drag, and sex being as common as a handshake...
What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.
Because its not an accurate representation of everyone or even most gay guys. Yes, there are quite a bit caught up in doing that, and it gets flaunted publicly during pride...and that annoys me, they are doing more harm than good, playing right into the image that the conservative right loves to project, when there are a ton of us out there that are nothing like that at all. There are many heterosexuals that are the same way, but I digress.

Its probably the same frustration many on here feel (myself included) when evangelical Christians are portrayed as narrow minded, holier-than-thou bigots who condemn everyone to hell. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what reactions to expect to this post, but it is a relief to finally be out and see that even though I'm not agreed with (didn't expect to be), at least I'm not disowned.
I can understand where you're coming from on the inaccurate representation part. That's not quite what I was asking though. I'm glad you said all of that, but I'd still like to understand your perspective on the question I asked. Hypothetically speaking, from your perspective what would be the problem with that portrayal if it were accurate? I understand that you're saying it's not, but since that's how the media puts it across, what would be wrong about it if it were accurate? Get what I'm asking now?

And again, I'm genuinely asking. I'd like to understand your perspective on the matter.
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By El Scorcho
Registration Days Posts
#261721
bigsmooth wrote:atrain, i commend you for your honesty and having the guts to come out. though i do disagree with your views, you are still a friend. that will not change.
Also, I echo smoothie's sentiment here. Ditto.
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#261735
El Scorcho wrote:
ATrain wrote:
El Scorcho wrote: What's wrong with that? I'm not referring to the portrayal, but if the homosexual lifestyle were in fact that way, what would the problem be from your perspective?

Genuine question.
Because its not an accurate representation of everyone or even most gay guys. Yes, there are quite a bit caught up in doing that, and it gets flaunted publicly during pride...and that annoys me, they are doing more harm than good, playing right into the image that the conservative right loves to project, when there are a ton of us out there that are nothing like that at all. There are many heterosexuals that are the same way, but I digress.

Its probably the same frustration many on here feel (myself included) when evangelical Christians are portrayed as narrow minded, holier-than-thou bigots who condemn everyone to hell. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure what reactions to expect to this post, but it is a relief to finally be out and see that even though I'm not agreed with (didn't expect to be), at least I'm not disowned.
I can understand where you're coming from on the inaccurate representation part. That's not quite what I was asking though. I'm glad you said all of that, but I'd still like to understand your perspective on the question I asked. Hypothetically speaking, from your perspective what would be the problem with that portrayal if it were accurate? I understand that you're saying it's not, but since that's how the media puts it across, what would be wrong about it if it were accurate? Get what I'm asking now?

And again, I'm genuinely asking. I'd like to understand your perspective on the matter.
Well, IF it were accurate (which its not), then my problem would not be with the media and its portrayal of homosexuality but rather the entire homosexual community for being self-obsessed about only sexual gratification with no concern for anyone else.
By GoUNCA
Registration Days Posts
#261742
A wolf in among the sheep! ahhhhhhhhhh :D

I'm sure that Atrain feels like a huge weight is off his chest. I know that it was probably difficult for him, especially here. My hat is off to him and just want to reiterate that my God is more than happy to have you.

I hate this choice argument; of course homosexuality is a choice. Just like heterosexuality or lots of other things...

Everyone is genetically destined to be more or less likely to make certain decisions. I can't stand the taste of cream cheese. Cream Cheese didn't molest me or anything dumb like that. My brain just isn't wired to enjoy the combination nerve fibers associated with the taste (and smell) of cream cheese. Because of this I choose to not eat cream cheese.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#261745
GoUNCA wrote:my God is more than happy to have you.
My God is too. I just think that my God doesn't like what he's doing.
By GoUNCA
Registration Days Posts
#261751
SuperJon wrote:
GoUNCA wrote:my God is more than happy to have you.
My God is too. I just think that my God doesn't like what he's doing.
Oh, right. We still need rules.

In that case my God doesn't care so much what he is doing in a committed relationship so long as he is loving God and loving his neighbors as he loves himself.
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