A Sea Of Red

The Jesse Matthew case isn’t new news. What’s new is putting it in relief with all of the other issues. It was easy to throw it out as a tragedy only marginally connected to LU. Now it can be framed as emblematic of a rotten culture at the school.

What really fills me with anger is the complete lack of public humility in regards to any of it. Not one statement has come out from anyone of consequence in leadership towards anything that has happened at the school to even suggest the possibility of contrition. Not even a “maybe we should have done that differently” or even sorrow over someone being harmed at LU. Everything is either cover-up or double-down. It’s rotten and it needs to be dealt with.

I had heard about Matthew being an expelled Liberty student. The revelation in this episode was that a girl tried to report him for sexual assault and was told by the Dean of Women's office not to report it.

The story at the end with the student who had photo evidence of her attack but still lost her Title IX case was gut wrenching.

We're Christians. We should be doing a lot better than this.

In these so called cover ups, I wonder if race played a roll. It's very easy to be labeled raciest, no one wants that. Just thinking out loud.

Kids need to grow a brain and be careful who the befriend. The first girl went on a second date after she knew better. Our culture is in decline, everywhere. Hate say it but it probably gets worse.

TH Spangler wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 10:44 am In these so called cover ups, I wonder if race played a roll. It's very easy to be labeled raciest, no one wants that. Just thinking out loud.

Kids need to grow a brain and be careful who the befriend. The first girl went on a second date after she knew better. Our culture is in decline, everywhere. Hate say it but it probably gets worse.

Or people need to stop sexually abusing people.

Victim blaming like this is uncalled for. If you have ever been close with a sexual assault victim , you'd have a hard time putting out such terrible statements.

Just wondering how many posters here were dorm students or closely connected to the campus back in 2005?

Any thoughts on this?

I didn't get here til spring 2006. From the people I've talked today, they all say they remember the rumors going around about that back then but didn't know who it was or any details.

I arrived on campus in 2003. I lived on campus in 2005. I have one very personal event from my freshmen year that I almost left Liberty over that makes this, and the other things discussed in episode 3, even more believable.

So that, along with all the rumors that were always swirling, makes it pretty easy to believe.

Any thoughts on this exact event? What were the students saying back in 2005? Or even 2006? These things tend to stick around awhile.

As for "victim blaming/shaming" or whatever....I'm not fond of this in any investigation. But in particular to sexual assault, I do find that there are alarming numbers of false allegations compared to other crimes. *Edit* They DO NOT exceed the number of founded allegations, however. Nevertheless, I have seen individuals, served with perjured search warrants because of false sexual assault allegations. Due diligence should be EXTRA profound in these cases. Vetting the victim, like any other investigation, is a necessary element to doing so, and finding/plugging/exposing holes in their story are extremely telling in sexual assault cases....where I have seen more than once, the perpetrator ending up as the victim. Nonetheless, I am not asserting that applies in this case. The reactions the victim had to medical help and being uncooperative are consistent with sexual assault victim responses. Difficulty with recall is likewise, not uncommon. Unfortunately, the nature of the investigation for these types of cases revictimize the victim because of the required processes.....but I don't know how you can escape that if the investigation is thorough. Many victims are hesitant for that very reason.

Additionally, LU not fully "embracing this" does not surprise me. Mainly because, I think their response would be similar at many other institutions. One in particular near me has done so, and even discouraged victims from coming forward, but rather choosing "counseling" and student services as an alternative. I do not agree with this and LU should be better than that IF there was more they could have done. Turning it over the the local officials and State's attorney was the wisest step and probably one they should exercise more often. These are pretty complicated cases, and whether it did or did not happen is not something one can discern from an article(s) or rumor mill....or sometimes even the recall of those involved. However, I personally feel these types of assaults, by their very character, are some of the most vicious and violent forms of dehumanizing, and should be afforded as much attention and as many resources as possible. Especially on a college campus, where predators feel there is a "target rich" environment. Failure to commit public safety to such offenses is completely derelict.

Finally, if all this young lady is looking to do is tell her story, insist on accountability, and improve safety measures....? I think that lends to her credibility. Motive is the first and constant contributor to suspicion. That's where I would start on where the truth lies. Her motive, based on what I've seen, does not raise suspicion of her....to me.

*Full disclosure* I haven't fully researched this case and am interested in looking into it further. I suspect no one will ever have everything associated with it, since much of the information would be protected from FOIA, due to the incident's sensitivity.

The victim in this case specifically asked Julie Roys to redact the perpetrator's name in the reporting. That lends me to believe she's not seeking damage against that person (and is likely afraid of him) but rather trying to get things reported accurately and get systems in place to help protect other girls from this type of assault.

rtb72 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 11:35 am As for "victim blaming/shaming" or whatever....I'm not fond of this in any investigation. But in particular to sexual assault, I do find that there are alarming numbers of false allegations compared to other crimes. *Edit* They DO NOT exceed the number of founded allegations, however. Nevertheless, I have seen individuals, served with perjured search warrants because of false sexual assault allegations. Due diligence should be EXTRA profound in these cases. Vetting the victim, like any other investigation, is a necessary element to doing so, and finding/plugging/exposing holes in their story are extremely telling in sexual assault cases....where I have seen more than once, the perpetrator ending up as the victim. Nonetheless, I am not asserting that applies in this case. The reactions the victim had to medical help and being uncooperative are consistent with sexual assault victim responses. Difficulty with recall is likewise, not uncommon. Unfortunately, the nature of the investigation for these types of cases revictimize the victim because of the required processes.....but I don't know how you can escape that if the investigation is thorough. Many victims are hesitant for that very reason.

Additionally, LU not fully "embracing this" does not surprise me. Mainly because, I think their response would be similar at many other institutions. One in particular near me has done so, and even discouraged victims from coming forward, but rather choosing "counseling" and student services as an alternative. I do not agree with this and LU should be better than that IF there was more they could have done. Turning it over the the local officials and State's attorney was the wisest step and probably one they should exercise more often. These are pretty complicated cases, and whether it did or did not happen is not something one can discern from an article(s) or rumor mill....or sometimes even the recall of those involved. However, I personally feel these types of assaults, by their very character, are some of the most vicious and violent forms of dehumanizing, and should be afforded as much attention and as many resources as possible. Especially on a college campus, where predators feel there is a "target rich" environment. Failure to commit public safety to such offenses is completely derelict.

Finally, if all this young lady is looking to do is tell her story, insist on accountability, and improve safety measures....? I think that lends to her credibility. Motive is the first and constant contributor to suspicion. That's where I would start on where the truth lies. Her motive, based on what I've seen, does not raise suspicion of her....to me.

*Full disclosure* I haven't fully researched this case and am interested in looking into it further. I suspect no one will ever have everything associated with it, since much of the information would be protected from FOIA, due to the incident's sensitivity.

I believe I recall a LU female swimmer misleading a lot of people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out the facts.

Jonathan Carone wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 11:53 am The victim in this case specifically asked Julie Roys to redact the perpetrator's name in the reporting. That lends me to believe she's not seeking damage against that person (and is likely afraid of him) but rather trying to get things reported accurately and get systems in place to help protect other girls from this type of assault.

Seems reasonable. I would be interested in the States Attorney's office position. It may not have been that they didn't want to prosecute....but the "beyond reasonable doubt" in these cases can be very, very difficult, and I suspect that was the precursor for their decision based on the evidence....or lack thereof. Sometimes, the victim's actions and behaviors before/after are exploited (actually almost always the case) to cast such reasonable doubt. It's a shame really.....but that's how it is. A good defense attorney is looking at that first thing. That's why I never liked "Special Victims" investigations. I don't have the patience or tolerance.

TH Spangler wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 12:08 pm

rtb72 wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 11:35 am As for "victim blaming/shaming" or whatever....I'm not fond of this in any investigation. But in particular to sexual assault, I do find that there are alarming numbers of false allegations compared to other crimes. *Edit* They DO NOT exceed the number of founded allegations, however. Nevertheless, I have seen individuals, served with perjured search warrants because of false sexual assault allegations. Due diligence should be EXTRA profound in these cases. Vetting the victim, like any other investigation, is a necessary element to doing so, and finding/plugging/exposing holes in their story are extremely telling in sexual assault cases....where I have seen more than once, the perpetrator ending up as the victim. Nonetheless, I am not asserting that applies in this case. The reactions the victim had to medical help and being uncooperative are consistent with sexual assault victim responses. Difficulty with recall is likewise, not uncommon. Unfortunately, the nature of the investigation for these types of cases revictimize the victim because of the required processes.....but I don't know how you can escape that if the investigation is thorough. Many victims are hesitant for that very reason.

Additionally, LU not fully "embracing this" does not surprise me. Mainly because, I think their response would be similar at many other institutions. One in particular near me has done so, and even discouraged victims from coming forward, but rather choosing "counseling" and student services as an alternative. I do not agree with this and LU should be better than that IF there was more they could have done. Turning it over the the local officials and State's attorney was the wisest step and probably one they should exercise more often. These are pretty complicated cases, and whether it did or did not happen is not something one can discern from an article(s) or rumor mill....or sometimes even the recall of those involved. However, I personally feel these types of assaults, by their very character, are some of the most vicious and violent forms of dehumanizing, and should be afforded as much attention and as many resources as possible. Especially on a college campus, where predators feel there is a "target rich" environment. Failure to commit public safety to such offenses is completely derelict.

Finally, if all this young lady is looking to do is tell her story, insist on accountability, and improve safety measures....? I think that lends to her credibility. Motive is the first and constant contributor to suspicion. That's where I would start on where the truth lies. Her motive, based on what I've seen, does not raise suspicion of her....to me.

*Full disclosure* I haven't fully researched this case and am interested in looking into it further. I suspect no one will ever have everything associated with it, since much of the information would be protected from FOIA, due to the incident's sensitivity.

I believe I recall a LU female swimmer misleading a lot of people. Sometimes it's hard to figure out the facts.

Totally agree. Thus my assertion the more than necessary course of due diligence in such cases. One false accusation doesn't equate to others being likewise...anymore than one founded accusation means others are. These cases are very difficult, and very emotional.

Jonathan Carone wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 11:53 am The victim in this case specifically asked Julie Roys to redact the perpetrator's name in the reporting. That lends me to believe she's not seeking damage against that person (and is likely afraid of him) but rather trying to get things reported accurately and get systems in place to help protect other girls from this type of assault.

Interesting reasoning. However, mentioning names will only lead to litigation. You would need proof in order to avoid that. But even with proof, you can still get yourself into trouble.

We understand that LU was negligent in not entering the claim into the crime log. However, what evidence there is would be with LUPD and L-PD. You would think at the very least, they evaluated her head and genital injuries, the crime scene itself, and interviewed the guy that she actually knew and attended a movie with.

thepostman wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 11:23 am I arrived on campus in 2003. I lived on campus in 2005. I have one very personal event from my freshmen year that I almost left Liberty over that makes this, and the other things discussed in episode 3, even more believable.

So that, along with all the rumors that were always swirling, makes it pretty easy to believe.

If this is all we have, then I don't know what to think. I certainly don't know. But neither does anyone else here.... apparently.

Things like this spread rapidly, especially among the female population. Mass panic and cautionary measures are sure to follow.

It isn't my place to tell my friend's story. She hasn't been extremely open about it in public but it isn't small and it certainly exposed things about the LU culture to me early on but I was far too young and naive to fully understand it at the time. I am no longer that naive kid, and it is quite clear to me that my friend's experience isn't as isolated as I tried to convince myself it was back in 2003.

I'm thinking more in line with the 2005 story that was posted here. It would be hard to defend any knucklehead tendencies of the administration. Past or present. Not gonna do it.

On the flip side, the 2005 claim, would weigh heavy in the female consciousness. They would fixate on this, and for good reason. All parties who know about it would be obligated to warn others of the dangers surrounding the tunnels. And they would. After all, someone claims to have been beaten, brutalized, and penetrated by three men speaking a foreign language. Right?

Ahhh ok. Well on that note there were always rumors about things that happened in the ravine and then when the tunnel opened I remember hearing things. So it is hard to remember anything specific about this story. It was 16 years ago and it doesn't sound like she was out telling everybody. She just wanted to be heard and for things to be changed from a safety perspective.

I was talking to my wife about this earlier today and she said she always felt safer at other colleges because they always had cameras and call boxes. LU never had any of that. So she has a hard time believing LU was actually the safest.

I think that has changed now but I'm not 100% sure.

Just saying. Scary stuff. Panic and hysteria usually spreads quite quickly among the female population. And understandably so. Tell one person and everyone knows by the end of the day.

There’s also a lot of shame in this situation at a Christian school that operates like Liberty. A lot of women would feel they have to stay quiet to avoid people thinking they brought it on themselves.

This was pretty brutal though. I mean what kind of shape do you return to your dorm in? Hit in the head with a two by four, beaten, bruised, vaginal wounds, major trauma. Huge event.

LUconn wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 8:38 am [

Purple Haize wrote:
I’m not sure who to believe in this story but I also don’t know what was expected

Gangster capitalism ep 3 interviews a title ix expert who lays out exactly what they should have done. And that's completely ignoring the whole "Christian caring for others" thing

Yeah that doesn’t really answer my question though. They obviously didn’t do a Title IX report but that doesn’t mean something did or did not happen. That is more of an Administrative and technical procedure they botched (which I’m not shocked about as I stated earlier). They had ‘Kathy’ talk to local law enforcement authorities who actually had the ability to pursue arrest and convict this individual for sexual assault. They, not LU, chose to pass. LU did meet with her and come up with a plan to make campus safer. Some of which they actually implemented some of which they did not. Why didn’t they follow through on the part they didn’t? I don’t know. But I doubt it was a purposeful attempt to defame “Kathy”.

TH Spangler wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2021, 7:42 am

ballah09 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2021, 7:41 pm

stokesjokes wrote: ↑June 1st, 2021, 6:55 pm Y’all have some unrealistic expectations for how someone who experienced a violent trauma should behave or how she should recollect the trauma. It’s normal for it to come back in fragments and not in a cohesive narrative. It’s normal for her decision-making to not be entirely rational. It’s normal for her to struggle to be forthcoming with details in all of these high pressure situations. There’s more of a cohesive timeline and paper trail in this case than in most I’ve interacted with.

Also, that quote from Godwin is absolutely ghoulish.

This. We're probably going to see a lot more victims coming out since Prevo is cleaning out Jr's guys and replacing them with his.

Speaking of admins, politico put a good article out on how crazy our board members are and how bad Jonathan got treated during the past election.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ump-491319

Rewrites of this article are already popping up on outlets like MSN, Salon, Slate, Yahoo, Mother Jones.

You can bet if Liberty, like the article suggest, moves back to a more conservative stance like that of Doctor Falwell, Pastor Johnathan or Dr Voddie Baucham the media attention will double.

The National Inquirer is much more valid than any of those outlets (maybe with the exception of Yahoo).

I think he's talking about the board of trustees in general and not the 2005 story in particular.

The 2005 story is not publishable in its current form for the very reason that we see with potential perceptions such as Stokes. He thinks that Godwin is being quoted when it's an unsubstantiated claim. No one is going to sue Roys, but they would go after MSN for sure. The piece is in need of some heavy editing and skillful revising.

Listening to Episode 3 I’m blown away that they didn’t bring up the most well known and highest profile case.

Title IX had been an issue for a long long time on Campus. I believe every bit of the stories about them covering up or botching anything. And don’t get my started on HR