[belcherboy]

I'd like to know who is paying Trump $5 million an appearance though. Bill Clinton was closer to $500,000 a speech in 2011. IMO, there is NO WAY that Trump gets more than Clinton does....at least not 10x's more. I would think at best Trump gets around what Clinton gets...although I may be wrong.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-03/poli ... M:POLITICS

The most lucrative was a November speech in Hong Kong to Swedish-based telecom giant Ericsson -- $750,000. Clinton also earned $700,000 for a March speech to a local newspaper publishing company in Lagos, Nigeria, and $550,000 for a November speech to a business forum in Shanghai, China. He earned $500,000 apiece for three events in Austria and Holland in May and in the United Arab Emirates in December.

[ALUmnus]

I Lecturing homosexuals on marriage seems a bit petty when most churches are north of 50% when looking at their congregation and who has been divorced.

Urban legend, and not true.

And so we're to ignore one of the biggest cultural challenges to our society. Especially when more and more of the youngest generation is okay with it. Got it.

I just love it when everyone points to gluttony as the squirrel. Works every time!

[belcherboy]

I Lecturing homosexuals on marriage seems a bit petty when most churches are north of 50% when looking at their congregation and who has been divorced.

Urban legend, and not true.

And so we're to ignore one of the biggest cultural challenges to our society. Especially when more and more of the youngest generation is okay with it. Got it.

I just love it when everyone points to gluttony as the squirrel. Works every time!

What is not true?

[Sly Fox]

He's referring to the 50% divorce rate in the church.

[belcherboy]

He's referring to the 50% divorce rate in the church.

Ah, I've heard the number at 35%-50%, so take your pick. Why are we as churches spending any time harping on gay marriage? It's not like the churches that do it have any problems with very many gays in their congregation? Regardless, 1/3 to 1/2 (whichever you prefer) are or have been divorced in the average congregation. That doesn't include those who have dealt with infidelity and stuck it out.

It's frustrating to see this generation flooding out of the churches when they turn 18 years old, and instead of preaching to the problems of those who do attend church, we preach against gay marriage. I'm sure that will bring back the 18-30 year old people who left.

[ALUmnus]

Sly, you freelance, right? I'm considering hiring you to follow me around and clarify all the vague statements I make. It could really help me out at home and in job interviews.

[Sly Fox]

If you are willing to pay my daily fees, count me in.

[belcherboy]

I'm reading a book called "Deep and Wide" by Andy Stanley, so that is probably why I'm so sensitive about the topic of rabbit trails churches take that gets them away from the true purpose of the church.

See, I've taken a Donald Trump thread and run a rabbit trail in it! Sorry.

[Sly Fox]

This would be a very good topic for the Chapel. In fact, I'd be happy to split the topic and continue it over there if others would like.

[4everfsu]

I saw a bumper sticker once -

"Right, like Jesus would carry a gun and vote Republican"

And I wrote in a note on the windshield -

"Right, like Jesus would support abortion and vote Democrat"


Having said that -

Are you guy familiar with Liberty University? It was like that since before you chose it.

Yes that is true, but the political angle it takes has gotten old and its time to get out of the political arena. God is not a Republican, nor a Democrat, nor any other political party in the world. It's time to stop demonizing those that have leanings towards the left or any other side then the right, its okay, the world won't end because two political parties disagree as to how to move forward. There are things that are wrong in both parties, and just because your affiliated with one or the other does not mean that you are any less of a Christian. That also means that people don't always believe every part of their parties platform. All I'm trying to say is that Liberty University is a great school and I am proud that it holds firm to its Christian roots. I do believe however it is time to stop talking politics and focus on what we are actually here to do: glorify God and train Champions for Christ.

But what do you do when one party above all clearly flies in the face of those Christian roots you speak of? How can Christians financially or otherwise support a party that wants to/does/is -

1. Redefine the biblical definition of marriage
2. Supports abortion
3. Wants to redefine American culture to the point where Homosexuality, Transsexuality, Transgenderality, Incest, and "Questioning" is considered normal and "OK"
4. Teach that pre-marital sex is OK and that contraception is the answer, not abstinence
5. Want to remove God from the platform and the party all together
6. Does not support Israel



So yes, it may not be popular, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that If you are a Christian, how can you be Democrat? How?

Here are some bottom line facts, that cannot be argued as they come straight from the Dem's official platform -

1. Abortions with no exceptions for the length of pregnancy...IE partial birth abortions are OK
2. Abortions regardless of ability to pay...IE tax-payer funded abortions


Please, those of you who support the Democratic party, how can you be a Christian and support those two viewpoints?

+1

[Purple Haize]

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

[adam42381]

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

Well said.

[ballah09]

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

[LUaddict]

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

Well said Mr. Haize!

[rogers3]

And for those wondering about the Trump aircraft ...

Thanks, Sly! After seeing that 757, I was watching Flightaware to see what was coming in. I saw an L60 from LaGuardia- pretty pedestrian for Trump!

[bluedevilflame]

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

You said it well!

[LUaddict]

This is in response to logic's questions. I apologize for going off topic but wanted to address this, this will be the last post I make on this topic. I appreciate logic for presenting his reasoning in a well written and argued stance and I will do the same with mine. I am in no way trying to start an argument or force my beliefs, I just wanted to present a rubuttal
and move along

Before I say anything, this one verse is what I always go to in conversations like this comes from Psalm 140:12, “I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy.” This verse is the reason for my political beliefs and why I feel the way I do.
I’ll begin with gay marriage. Yes, the Biblical definition of marriage is between a man and a woman, but the problem is, not everyone is Christian. Our founding fathers came to this world for religious freedom and showed as much by planting the seeds for dividing church and state. We as Christians have no right to force our Biblical definition of marriage down those that don’t share that view point. Just because I don’t agree with homosexuality, does not mean I have the right to infringe on anyone else’s civil rights. Condemn it, because it is wrong and I do, but we can’t stand in the way of it. I’ve often heard through the years, that gay marriage will ruin the sanctity of marriage. I believe our 40-50% divorce rate has already done so in this country.
Next, the topic of abortion. Abortion is an abomination that is fact and I agree with you wholeheartedly. But, there is a big difference between supporting abortion and understanding it will happen.”No matter what our beliefs are, abortions will always happen, whether they are against the law or not. It is the responsibility of our health care providers to make sure that if an abortion is decided on by a woman using her own free will, then it should be carried out in a safe manner where the woman’s life isn’t in danger which was the case prior to Roe v. Wade. The root of this problem is in education and the breakdown of the American family, especially in our low income-poverty stricken communities. Young men and women aren’t taught the necessary skills and given the right moral compass to understand why 1) premarital sex is wrong morally and in the eyes of God and 2) that if they must have premarital sex, do so in as safe a manner as possible. Abstinence is Biblical as well as the best way to prevent this mess in the first place, but isn’t applicable in the day and age. This issue ultimately comes down to our God given free will and when we go in the wrong direction because of it.
Next, I find it quite interesting that you included incest in with homosexuality, trans sexuality, and trans genders. While I disagree with all of them, I’d like more clarification as to where any democrat has ever said they agreed with or thought that incest was okay. As far as trans sexual and genders, this is a matter of civil rights as well. Although I don’t agree with these lifestyles, I don’t think that I have the right, nor does any political party have, to infringe on their ability to carry on with their lives. Personally, I find it repulsive and a sign of deep mental trouble that an individual struggle with these issues but the bottom line is no matter what, they are God’s creations and He still loves them. If we are ever to battle these lifestyles and help these individuals, we have to lead by our example Jesus Christ. He spoke with murderers, rapists, thieves, prostitutes, and loved them and forgave them if they wanted redemption through Him. This issue is no different, they are a part of our culture just like those sinners were part of that times culture. They have been around for quite some time closeted or open and they won’t go away. We have to learn that while we don’t accept their lifestyle, we can love the person and show them by example the love they can have through Jesus.
I mentioned this topic in early but will touch briefly again. Is abstinence the answer, yes it is, will people, especially young people, abide by it, absolutely not. Contraception is way to prevent the rampant abortions and morning after pill usage we have today. While it’s understood that abstinence is the best way to prevent disease, unwanted pregnancy, drop-out rates, and keep abortions down, it’s also understood that most people will not practice it. It’s truly as simple as that and goes right back to our free will as humans.
God was reinserted into the platform a few weeks ago, after being backed by President Obama. While this was booed by several in the crowd due to separation of church and state concerns, keep in mind this is a SMALL fraction of the party’s members in an arena and does not reflect the entire party as a whole. The only reason behind this being removed goes back to the founding of this country and the idea of separation of church and state for the good of the union.
Israel is support and has been said so on countless occasions by President Obama. Jerusalem was also reinserted into the platform as Israel’s capital.
“As for Israel, our friendship is rooted deeply in a shared history and shared values. Our commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable. And we will stand against attempts to single it out for criticism in international forums.”
-President Obama
“Even while we may at times disagree, as friends sometimes will, the bonds between the United States and Israel are unbreakable and the commitment of the United States to the security of Israel is ironclad.“
-President Obama
"We stand with Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. America's commitment and my commitment to the security of Israel is unshakeable."
-President Obama
Back to the abortion topic, I do not agree with partial birth abortion and tax funded abortions, this goes back to my original post where I said that we don’t always agree with our parties on all topics and I hope, as a Christian, for that language to be changed.
What I said in my previous post may have had clichés in it, but it’s the truth. I don’t think any Christian should be judged or demonized for their individual political views without understanding their thoughts and reasoning's behind them.

Bluedevilflame, I feel the same exact way about LU's politics and this one of the best post I have seen on FF. Bravo sir, commendable!

I know many will laugh at me for this but this is the post of the year.

[jbock13]

I actually agree with logic here. Although Haize had a good point too. I would just be careful about the word "judge". There are plenty of things that we as Christians should feel free to point out as sin. But that doesn't mean we should bother or outlaw others who don't feel that way.

[flamehunter]

Abortion is an abomination that is fact and I agree with you wholeheartedly. But, there is a big difference between supporting abortion and understanding it will happen.”No matter what our beliefs are, abortions will always happen, whether they are against the law or not. It is the responsibility of our health care providers to make sure that if an abortion is decided on by a woman using her own free will, then it should be carried out in a safe manner where the woman’s life isn’t in danger which was the case prior to Roe v. Wade.

Murders are going to happen whether its legal or not. So lets provide avenues to make it safe. Maybe have professional hit men provided by the government who will make sure no innocent bystanders are hurt and the job is done cleanly and efficiently. I mean, murderers decide to do it of their own free will, so let's make sure they are carried out in a safe manner. There is a big difference between supporting murder and understanding it will happen. No matter what our beliefs are, murders will always happen, legal or not.

Laugh at me all you want but that is how ridiculous this argument is. Abortion is an abomination, you said so yourself. Murder is also an abomination. At least those who support abortion rights justify it by dehumanizing the baby and call it a non-life.

[Cider Jim]

Back on topic, Mr. Tump is getting lots of love from Liberty students/alumni on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/DonaldTrump

[LUconn]

As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

This is the biggest load of horse manure I've ever read. And I'm completely not surprised by who in this thread is supportive of this statement. The most hilarious part is that I know you don't agree with it.

[ALUmnus]

Whoa, surprise of the week, all the liberals on the board are tired of LU's politics. Still waiting for a few more to show up and pile on with the high-fives.

The Christian Left believes in Gods love and Grace. When society provides for the poor, sick and hungry society is living closer to Gods ideal then the Christian Rights 'God helps those who help themselves' mentality. As for Abortion, while the act itself is abominable, God still loves the mother and the unborn is in the Arms of Jesus. If God will leave His heart open shouldn't we? Why should we as society judge topics such as gay marriage, welfare, abortion, divorce etc when the Bible says the God is the ultimate judge, not us.

Scanning, scanning, scanning....nope, nothing Biblical here, sorry. Next!

[Purple Haize]

Gods love and grace are not Biblical? Caring for the 'least of these' is not Biblical? Further, what you have done to the least among you, you have done to Me? I'm sure the Bible talks about Jesus saying 'When I was hungry you fed me, naked you clothed me...' What Bible are you reading? You must be one of those non-KJV Bible people

[SuperJon]

You can't legislate morality.

The Christian Left is all about Gods grace and love but always forget about his justice and hatred of sin.

The Christian Right is all about his justice and hatred of sin but always forget about his grace and love.

The only way we change the world is if we come together and truly loving people but not being afraid to speak about God's justice and hatred of sin in a loving manner. Legislating religion will never get us anywhere other than arguments and misplaced hatred.

[Purple Haize]

You can't legislate morality.

The Christian Left is all about Gods grace and love but always forget about his justice and hatred of sin.

The Christian Right is all about his justice and hatred of sin but always forget about his grace and love.

The only way we change the world is if we come together and truly loving people but not being afraid to speak about God's justice and hatred of sin in a loving manner. Legislating religion will never get us anywhere other than arguments and misplaced hatred.

So all Christians should be ambidextrous