[GoUNCA]

Excuse me, I didn't know I needed to go to 'How to post 101' before I posted.
Also, my boss is gay so I'm pretty sure I have an understanding of the way homosexuals think and how they feel about their lifestyle. He's a friend of mine but I definitely don't agree with his lifestyle.
I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Christian and not believe the Bible is the inherent word of God that can't be ignored. The fact that homosexuals disregard what the Bible says about homosexuality is a complete slap in the face to me as someone who believes the Bible is without question the word of God to be believed in and obeyed.

ATrain already kind of addressed it but, if that's the case I have no idea how you can do any of the following and still be a Christian.

Wear two different kinds of material (Lev 19:19).
OR
Cut your hair/beard (Lev 19:27-28 )

Those are just two examples, I didn't even go into the weird fascination with bodily fluids ( I hope you stay away from menstruating women!).

I'm sorry that it is basically impossible to take Leviticus as God's laws for the world (not to mention Jesus really didn't regard them highly). If you do take them as God's direct laws for the world, well, then you have much bigger problems with trying to live in modern culture than Gay marriage.

Leviticus lays out laws for an old israeli tribal society. I'm certainly not faulting them for it; they did the best with the information they had. They were trying to keep the Israeli people united in the face of the many challenges of the old tribal middle east. It worked great at the time, it is the only continuous history from a people from that time that we have and is probably the one of the main reason you worship a Judeo based God and not some other religion (Some polytheistic religion or Buddhism seems the most likely candidates).

I am for equal government recognition of homosexual and heterosexual unions, which seems to be under the term marriage. However, I am not for a church or pastor being forced to marry two guys or two girls, as I also believe in the first amendment and the freedom to practice religion.

Exactly my sentiments, although I don't have any problems with churches condoning gay marriage as well. But that is a separate issue.

[ALUmnus]

Yet you don't care about athiests, Hindus, Muslims, or any other non-Christian having a man-woman marriage licensed by the government. A non believer marriage would, in that point of view, be just as big a "slap in the face to God." Hello double standard.

Standing before God Almighty on judgment day that's not going to get you very far.

Are you just missing the point that I think while standing before God Almighty that God won't care much about it? He probably thinks that if you focus on not liking gay marriage that you missed the point.

These are just two really stupid points. So marriage between two non-believers would equally be an offense toward God? God never said that two non-believers couldn't be together or marry, it's the state of being a non-believer that offends Him. And under that logic, God would automatically grant divorce for any married non-believer who is then saved but their spouse isn't. Marriage is a concrete concept, always has been, and to try to change what it is now is to throw out what it's always been, it's stealing the very definition of something away from it.

And when we're standing before God, to say that He won't care what it is He's judging us on is kind of contradictory. The blood of Christ is not a "get out of jail free" card, or a license to live however we want. It's forgiveness and a FREEDOM from the bondage of sin. If salvation doesn't change you, well.....

The pope was right, it's a shame that true repentence is so rare in modern times.

[rueful]

UNCA, where did the word for testament come from, as in, whats another word for it

[4everfsu]

Atrain I have a serious question for you. Say you are married(?) to a gay man, and you adopt kids or have them some other scientific way. When it comes time to tell them about the birds and the bees, what will you tell them? I can see confusion for them. Like I need to be like you and gay or I am not straight, if you get where I am coming from.

Of course a funny thought came in my head when writing the one line. Would it be a talk about the birds and the birds or the bees and the bees?

[rueful]

I don't believe the Bible can be treated like a buffet where one can pick and choose which part's of God's word they want to obey.

Couldn't agree with you more, which is why I changed my views on the Bible. But if you subscribe to a "literal" interpretation of the Bible this is what you are inevitably doing. Either you say that Leviticus is in fact the laws of God (and try to follow them.....http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news ... ally_N.htm) OR were just the representative laws of an early jewish society OR say that Jesus became the law and thus you don't necessarily have to follow it (ie eat pork, shellfish, wear mixed clothes...the list goes on and on).

Most of you will choose the third option because you would otherwise sound hypocritical, but if you do this you are basically opening up to the possibility that homosexuality isn't a sin either. I'll be very open about the fact that I think the second option is the best way to go.

Now someone will start quoting Paul....

How exactly does this view open up the possibility that Homosexuality isnt a sin? To answer my question above, Testament is another way of saying covenant, i.e. the Old Covenant and the New Covenant make up the bible. The old covenant did have alot of rules, but they werent rules to hinder our lives. For example, the ten commandments, No one would argue that Life would be better for everyone if we all murdered eachother and slept with our neighbors wives while coveting their possessions. Those are in place to make life better, and alot of the rules in the old testament are along those lines. God needed his people to be his representaiton to the rest of the world, so he set up guidelines of this is what I look like, and if you want to show others what I look like, do this and dont do this. Then you got alot of people go overboard and take the rules to the max, such as "God says rest on the sabbath, well I love God so much, I wont walk more than 600 feet on the sabbath, because that wouldnt be too restful"

So the new covenant came along, and God carried over alot of the same laws, but said that Jesus fulfilled the law. We dont have to follow the law, but we should follow Jesus. Jesus never commands people to do this or not do that, the only command he ever really gives is to follow him.

Having said that, in both Covenants, Homosexuality is a sin, and I believe full well it is. Yet, so is lying, so is lust, so is cheating. All sins are on the same playing field, and all were washed away by the blood of Christ. My homosexual friends can be just as saved as I am. Im not going to say whether or not its a choice because I am not Homosexual, so I have no idea, it would be ridiculous for me to say whether or not it was a choice.

So, Yes, I think you can be a homosexual and be a christian, in the same way that I can be a liar, a thief, and a pervert and still be a christian. However, If I continue to walk in the ways of lying, stealing, and perverted thoughts, im not placing myself under the Lordship of Christ, I must repent and stop doing those things with all that is in within me.

[rueful]

Of course a funny thought came in my head when writing the one line. Would it be a talk about the birds and the birds or the bees and the bees?

one thing I never understood. Birds and bees dont mate, and birds come both male and female, as do bees, so which represents which. Why did they choose birds and bees in the first place?

[4everfsu]

I guess the stork was not around that day when the talk needed to be given. Just a guess

[4everfsu]

I would say homosexuality is a choice and I would base my view on the bible, Gen 2:24. Either that or God is a liar. That is my story and I am sticking to it
On another footnote I do think some homosexuals had no choice in a way, for some I believe may had that choice made for them but a sex predator who preyed on them.
I also believe a gay person can be a born again Christian, just like an adulterer or fornicator can. In all those cases they do know right from wrong and again make their choices to sin.

I wonder if this thread will keep us occupied until football season.

I am glad we can have this discussion in a civil manner.

[ATrain]

Atrain I have a serious question for you. Say you are married(?) to a gay man, and you adopt kids or have them some other scientific way. When it comes time to tell them about the birds and the bees, what will you tell them? I can see confusion for them. Like I need to be like you and gay or I am not straight, if you get where I am coming from.

Of course a funny thought came in my head when writing the one line. Would it be a talk about the birds and the birds or the bees and the bees?

More often than not, those talks arise out of the question "Where do babies come from?" and I'm going to give it to him or her straight, babies are the product of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. If he or she asks whether or not he or she is gay, well the answer there is are you attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex, both, or don't know (as in they haven't developed sexual attractions yet)?

However, if I'm ever married/civil unioned/whatever (it will be a while...I'm nowhere near ready to settle down and enter into a commitment-and I'm not actively seeking a bf either) and if we decide to adopt or have kids, then the way the school systems have been going they'll probably be teaching sex-ed in 1st and 2nd grade

And finally, in regards to your position its a choice, I never choose to be attracted to other men. Indeed, I had multiple gfs in college but those relationships typcially ended with her saying "I just don't feel like you're physically attracted to me." Also, I was not the victim of a sexual predator, and while my dad and I weren't extremely close by any means, he was at least in my life. There are multiple theories out there about sexual attractions, and research is still ongoing. Right now the preliminary conclusion is that its based on biological factors, such as extra estrogen in the mother's womb, etc...

[dcbailey]

ATrain- we love you in spite of our differences.

A question I've always wanted to ask:

You have stated that you did not choose homosexuality, but rather it was how you were born, a part of your nature. I agree with you.

But please help me with this question: I was born with the natural tendancy to lie, cheat, steal, murder, be unfaithful to my wife, covet... and these are just the mild deviations. In all honesty, how are you and I all that different, with the exception of you calling your natural tendancy "not sin" and me agreeing with what I read Scripture to say is sin?

It is true, Jesus did not condemn the woman cought in adultery. But I think He also guided her to go and sin no more.

[FlameNForest]

[GoUNCA]

I would say homosexuality is a choice and I would base my view on the bible, Gen 2:24. Either that or God is a liar. That is my story and I am sticking to it
I am glad we can have this discussion in a civil manner.

God is only a liar if both testaments are the actual "words" of God. The bible isn't the Koran, in that it isn't a recitation of the conveyed words (actual words) of God. I've said before that the Bible is a reflection/experience of God relayed through people. It was passed down orally for many years and without a doubt has many additions/subtractions from it over time. Because of this we see the views/prejudices/norms/mores of the author's culture and time period. Since I don't see the bible as infallible I don't run into these problems of whether God is a liar or in trying to reconcile the new and old testaments or explain Paul's changing views when addressing churches located in different regions/cultures.

Also, I'm glad we can discuss this cordially.

How exactly does this view open up the possibility that Homosexuality isnt a sin? To answer my question above, Testament is another way of saying covenant, i.e. the Old Covenant and the New Covenant make up the bible. The old covenant did have alot of rules, but they werent rules to hinder our lives. For example, the ten commandments, No one would argue that Life would be better for everyone if we all murdered eachother and slept with our neighbors wives while coveting their possessions. Those are in place to make life better, and alot of the rules in the old testament are along those lines. God needed his people to be his representaiton to the rest of the world, so he set up guidelines of this is what I look like, and if you want to show others what I look like, do this and dont do this. Then you got alot of people go overboard and take the rules to the max, such as "God says rest on the sabbath, well I love God so much, I wont walk more than 600 feet on the sabbath, because that wouldnt be too restful"

So the new covenant came along, and God carried over alot of the same laws, but said that Jesus fulfilled the law. We dont have to follow the law, but we should follow Jesus. Jesus never commands people to do this or not do that, the only command he ever really gives is to follow him.

Having said that, in both Covenants, Homosexuality is a sin, and I believe full well it is. Yet, so is lying, so is lust, so is cheating. All sins are on the same playing field, and all were washed away by the blood of Christ. My homosexual friends can be just as saved as I am. Im not going to say whether or not its a choice because I am not Homosexual, so I have no idea, it would be ridiculous for me to say whether or not it was a choice.

So, Yes, I think you can be a homosexual and be a christian, in the same way that I can be a liar, a thief, and a pervert and still be a christian. However, If I continue to walk in the ways of lying, stealing, and perverted thoughts, im not placing myself under the Lordship of Christ, I must repent and stop doing those things with all that is in within me.

It opens up the possibility because jesus ran into problems with the law often. It was Jesus that sarcastically asked how eating something could make you unclean on the inside. I could not agree more with you that some of the laws are great.

You kind of argued yourself into a corner here. You may have not meant it this way but what you say in your first paragraph is that there were these ten commandments given directly to Moses. We agree those rules are fine and are no doubt a representation of God's idea for the world. You then say "Then you got alot of people go overboard and take the rules to the max." In saying that you are saying that people, not God, made many of the laws outside of the ten original commandments. Agreed. We all agree that people are fallible. So if people made these laws and one of them is against homosexuality, then it is certainly possible (probable says me) that homosexuality isn't a sin (it isn't in the ten rules given to moses).

I agree with you whole heartily on your second paragraph. Jesus said less about what not to do rather than what to do. Jesus never says anything about homosexuality.

As to a reply to ALUmus, I was using the non-believer comment as a political commentary, it wasn't meant to be used as reason for homosexuality to not be a sin. As far as the standing before God thing, I agree that forgiveness isn't a get out of jail free card. But if I don't think homosexuality is a sin when conducted in a committed relationship then why would god care about it?

[ATrain]

ATrain- we love you in spite of our differences.

A question I've always wanted to ask:

You have stated that you did not choose homosexuality, but rather it was how you were born, a part of your nature. I agree with you.

But please help me with this question: I was born with the natural tendancy to lie, cheat, steal, murder, be unfaithful to my wife, covet... and these are just the mild deviations. In all honesty, how are you and I all that different, with the exception of you calling your natural tendancy "not sin" and me agreeing with what I read Scripture to say is sin?

It is true, Jesus did not condemn the woman cought in adultery. But I think He also guided her to go and sin no more.

It is true we are all born with a sin nature. I have no doubt that nearly every straight guy has the desire to sleep with any woman they are attracted to, lust is a typical struggle of any guy, really. Here's the thing though, I am not attracted to women, never have been, likely never will be, and the ex-gfs also picked up on that.

Again, as ALAFlamesFan told TrueDrew earlier, the difference is how the Scriptures are intrepreted. We're no longer under the Old convenant but the New, and while Paul does seem to reference homosexuality, there are arguments out there-some extremely far fetched, some not so much-that Paul was referring to specific practices in Greco-Roman culture.

["R" i "]

Can Christians be gay, yes

Could a Christian murder some one, yes

Could a Christian indulge in hetero fornication, yes

Does God approve, NO, IMHO.

[rueful]

[quote=""R" i ""]Can Christians be gay, yes

Could a Christian murder some one, yes

Could a Christian indulge in hetero fornication, yes

Does God approve, NO, IMHO.[/quote]

exactly, which I think we all understand. I have a sin nature in my, but I still choose to act upon it. When I dont study for a test, my sin nature says to cheat, but I choose not to.

[GoUNCA]

[quote=""R" i ""]Can Christians be gay, yes

Could a Christian murder some one, yes

Could a Christian indulge in hetero fornication, yes

Does God approve, NO, IMHO.[/quote]

We agree on everything except the connection of the first thing with the last thing. Homosexuals can still sin with fornication outside of wedlock although it is hard for them to avoid this outside of the northeast and iowa! Actually, some churches have been holding marriage ceremonies for homosexuals for a while, despite not being recognized by the government.

[rueful]

UNCA, where are you finding the scripture references that say that homosexuality is not a sin? I think were all saying the same thing, that homosexuality is a sin. Most of us are saying it as a whole, but your saying its only sin when outside of marriage? Where in the bible does it say its ok to be homosexual? It is something mentioned in both the old and new covenant ( and before you say the leviticus stuff as a retort because, ya know, going to a christian school, weve never heard of leviticus, those were set up in the old covenant and were not carried over in the new covenant)

["R" i "]

If God approved of homo sexuality then can I ask you a respectful question A TRAIN.

If you believe that your sexuality pleases God, then why go to a school where the then Chancellor was the most outspoken against homosexuality. Why not go somewhere that you could be yourself without having to hide and listen to numerous convos calling you out on what you feel is right?

[ATrain]

[quote=""R" i ""]If God approved of homo sexuality then can I ask you a respectful question A TRAIN.

If you believe that your sexuality pleases God, then why go to a school where the then Chancellor was the most outspoken against homosexuality. Why not go somewhere that you could be yourself without having to hide and listen to numerous convos calling you out on what you feel is right?[/quote]

Simple, that school gave me a free undergraduate and graduate education-and the other ones I got into didn't. I considered not going into debt a good thing, and the parents were kinda insistent on where I went to school if they were going to help out. Plus, during undergrad, I was actually trying to change...ex-gay counseling, gfs, and enough fasting, prayer, personal meditation on God's word, Bible studies that you'd think I was going to be some type of spiritual superhero in whatever field I went into.

I am well aware of LU's stance on homosexualty, and when I got outted to the athletic administration this past year...well, they didn't kick me out...I'll leave it at that.

And Rueful, as I said earlier, there are some views out there that when Paul referenced homosexuality he was referring to specific Greco-Roman rituals and traditions, and not committed, monogamous homosexual relationships. Do I believe that they are 100% correct, not entirely, but at the same time I don't believe God would make a person (i.e. me) gay and then say I can't be involved with anyone ever.

[dbackjon]

Very interesting discussion - thanks for the invite to read/discuss.

ATrain - great work, my man!


(Note to those that don't know me, I am a regular poster on a couple of FCS boards - ATrain, Slyfox and SuperJon know who I am)

Oh, and yes, I am gay.

Background: Born in a loving, two parent home, minister's son. never molested, or any of the things that sometimes get attributed to "causing" homosexuality.

From the moment of onset of puberty, I have been attracted to males. While the other boys my age where discovering girls, I never understood the fuss. So no, Homosexuality is NOT a choice.

Ex-gay therapy is a joke, and the cause of much suffering, depression and suicide. No one has ever been "converted". Some may claim to be, and supress their NATURAL orientation in order to "fit in" or do what they think God wants, but in reality, they are still Gay, and only living a lie.

Homosexuality, in a form we know today is NOT a sin. The Biblical prohibitions are against rape, pedastry and pedophilia. The modern concept of homosexuality was not covered in the Bible.




No one is trying to force any church to change their beliefs, or marry anyone that they do not want. No heterosexual couple can force the Catholic Church to marry them. Most ministers of every demonination I have had contact with will not just marry any couple.

When and if my partner and I want to marry, how does that harm anyone else? As an American citizen, shouldn't I have the same opportunities as the next person? Why should I be denied equality?

[dbackjon]

Another point I would like to highlight is something ATrain touched on earlier - the perception of gays and lesbians in the media/popular culture.

I know a number of you express distaste for pride and other events - the "flaunting" and "flaming" behavior. What you DON'T ever see covered is the 95% of the crowd at these events that you would be hard pressed to separate out from any crowd at a public festivals. Doctors, lawyers, clergy, accountants, etc. Families with children. Of course the media concentrates on what makes an eye-grabbing picture, or good visual for the 6 o'clock news. Showing a bunch of regular people is boring...

[SuperJon]

I saw you join and knew you'd put some stuff in this discussion.

For those of you that don't know Jon, he's a pretty good guy. We may disagree on stuff but he can argue it civilly and tactfully unlike a lot of people.

[Hold My Own]

WOW...this will be the LAST time I jump straight to the last post without ever reading the start of the thread. ATrain I asked you that not knowing you posted what you did. I was actually going to ask you (via PM) but chose against it.



Never a dull moment on FF



Where the heck is Freelance? I thought he'd be all over this. I suppose there's no reason for him to come around b/c Liberty showed "Free market thinking" by not trying to take back their diploma or something.


All the best A-Train....like most have said, we disagree however that's what makes the world go round.

[4everfsu]

Dbackjon, welcome to FF. I will disagree with your lifestyle and Atrain's and your viewpoint homosexuality is not a sin, but will love you as a Christian brother and continue to pray for you.

[Sly Fox]

First off, I want to echo the sentiments that the disclosure in this thread has no impact on whether Atrain is still a brother on this board. He's been a vital member of this community dating back to the Firehouse days. I hope he remains a strong contributor here many years into the future. I am not going to pretend like I agree with the premise the lifestyle choice from a Biblical standpoint. I stand strongly in the inerrancy camp and Scripture leaves no room for any sex outside of the bonds of marriage whether it be heterosexual or homosexual.

Secondly, I am proud of the civility displayed in this thread. There is a very misguided perception externally that those of us tied to the school are somehow hatemongers. Hopefully this discussion continues to follow a positive tone.

Finally, I am pleased to see Atrain still holding to his Faith. One of my best friends at LU had a similar dilemma while a student of trying to fight his urges while a student. He was a prayer leader and a guy who really took the Word to heart. After he graduated he indulged himself and eventually turned Agnostic because he couldn't justify his gay lifestyle with Scripture. Given a choice, he landed on the concept that allowed him to indulge himself as he pleased by stating, "How can we possibly know what a God of the universe really thinks?" He & I have a continuing dialogue and he too questioned whether I would remain his friend when he told me how he was living today. But I hope we continue to demonstrate that God's love knows no boundaries.