[SuperJon]

What happened to come as you are? If we should be like Jesus, we should wear sandals and bath robes (which I would be ok with).

[ATrain]

Ehn-Sandals would make my feet to cold walkin from East in the winter. Bathrobes...as long as we could still do "Red tie Friday"

[SuperJon]

I wear sandals in January, it doesn't really bother me.

[TallyW]

SJ-- "The people coming through the college ranks are so much different now than even back in the late 90's and early 2000's."

You've got to be kidding. If you stand behind that statement I will have to assume that you're out of your mind.

Liberty is growing rapidly and it would have grown with the dress code we had when I attended (96-2001). With the increased facilities, tech, and explosion in marketing of the University I honestly can't see that the school doubled in five years simply because of slacks and a tie. Believe it or not SJ, people from public schools actually attended Liberty back in the stone ages of the 'late 90's' In fact, nearly all of my friends who went to LU came from public schools with next to no standards. It may seem strange but teenagers for most of human history have enjoyed the 'break away' period between 12 and 22. Not many people (over the course of history) have enjoyed regulation but surprisingly the military keeps hitting recruiting goals and Liberty actually kept a full enrollment during the dark ages (late 90's- early 2000's).

People are the same. Look at myspace for example... you'll find hundreds of LU grads from the late 90's on there... facebook is the same way... the graduates of 8-10 years ago aren't all that far along in their careers and many are just now having children. To say that they are so much different than today's college freshman is a statement made without thought. I guarentee that the guys on this board who went to LU in the 80's even have rebellious friends who hated the dress code. Guess what? Some went home and most sucked it up... When they graduated, those who stayed actually appreciated the discipline they gained. Let's not try to poison the well by saying there is such a gap in the heart of man. We're all pretty close when it comes to independance.

[STUDENT]

TallyW: It looks to me like you are contradicting yourself. If Liberty students are no different today than they were back with the old rules, that kind of throws out your case for the old rules making a difference doesn't it? Why don't you explain that to us?

Jon, the crazy thing is that I am also going to be a coach. I was going to post this before but I never did. I will actually be LESS dressed up when I leave Liberty. I know people of our profession are in the minority, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't really like other people telling me what's best for me, when they don't even know my situation.

Whoever said that you guys aren't judging us, look at the next few posts and then tell me that again. Maybe some of you aren't, but some of you definitely are.

[/quote]"As for that aspect of it, would you honestly compramise your choice over which college you want to graduate from, over wearing a polo shirt for a couple of hours a day, and keeping your hair trim? I the person that does may need to get their priorities in order."[\quote]

If that isn't judging, I don't know what is. You have no idea where my priorities are, buddy. It looks to me that I'm the more educated one in this situation also, considering your grammar and spelling.

[SuperJon]

First off, the "tech explosion" at LU is nothing special. It's going on at every school in the country. Most schools already had the stuff we have now. It's great that we're not falling behind but in no way are we leading the way in a technical revolution.

The reason I say people are different now than in years past (even recent years) when it comes to terms of "dress code," which is what we are discussing, it look at recent trends in fashions. The trends are jeans with holes in them, messy dirty looking hair for guys, facial hair that isn't that well kept. Those are the trends. The people you see walking around that "look like they haven't showered in days" probably just got out of the shower five minutes ago, but the look they were going for is not showered in days. If people want to dress up then by all means, let them. I have no problem for it. We're paying a crap load of money for an education, let us where what we're comfortable in to get that education. I have no problem with dressing up for presentations or stuff like that, but for just a regular class let us wear what we want.

[SuperJon]

Hey Student, what sport are you planning on coaching? I think I have a couple of ideas of who you might be.

[LUconn]

I'm honestly wondering how many people on here talking about the dress code that have graduated even have a clue about what high school seniors and college underclassmen look at when transferring or picking a college. Had LU kept their old dress code, I never would've been there. There's also a ginormous double standard when it comes to athletes. These people come to school in workout pants and a t-shirt and it's perfectly acceptable. They should have the same sets of rules for everyone. The only reason they let the athletes wear what they want half the time is they know the athlete would probably leave if held to the same dress code, and that's a legitimate reason. It's not 1971 anymore. The people coming through the college ranks are so much different now than even back in the late 90's and early 2000's. For LU to reach what Jerry wants it to reach, the dress code and curfew are going to have to be insanely slacked. The attendence policies are a joke as well. No other college that I know of has the attendence policies that LU does but that's a completely different argument there.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. I'm 24 years old! I just graduated in '04! (And just for some perspective of where I'm coming from I've attented public school my entire life until LU) If I was a typical college student I may even still be there now. The only thing different now is that long gay looking hair is in style now and so are sandles. And that just cyclical from the 70s. The school is not growing because of relaxed rules. It has been growing way before any rules were changed. I believe the rules were relaxed because the school is getting to the size where it's darn near impossible to enforce them strictly. That's just my opinion though.

As for how you can take class seriously no matter what you wear. That's fantastic. Take a few business psychology classes. SCAR will be the first to tell you there has been much psychological research done on productivity when you change the work environment. Right down to the type of lighting used. So it's not like big J just made up some rules to make your life difficult or because he's a prude. He knew what he was doing.

[bigsmooth]

First off, the "tech explosion" at LU is nothing special. It's going on at every school in the country. Most schools already had the stuff we have now. It's great that we're not falling behind but in no way are we leading the way in a technical revolution.

The reason I say people are different now than in years past (even recent years) when it comes to terms of "dress code," which is what we are discussing, it look at recent trends in fashions. The trends are jeans with holes in them, messy dirty looking hair for guys, facial hair that isn't that well kept. Those are the trends. The people you see walking around that "look like they haven't showered in days" probably just got out of the shower five minutes ago, but the look they were going for is not showered in days. If people want to dress up then by all means, let them. I have no problem for it. We're paying a crap load of money for an education, let us where what we're comfortable in to get that education. I have no problem with dressing up for presentations or stuff like that, but for just a regular class let us wear what we want.

SJ, im not believing what you are saying brother. the people i was speaking of looking unclean, i know and were up for hours. quite frankly it is disgusting and unprofessional. you are their for an education.except for techie jobs or if you are self-employed, holes in jeans and greasy messy hair are not acceptable. i could care less about trends. if you are going to interview for a job in the finance industry, sales, being a lawyer, or even working in a cubicle of any company this kind of dress in unacceptable. we all understand that LU is expensive, so i wish you guys now would quit the crying about what you think you deserve. this is a trend now of many college students and high schoolers alike, like older people or anyone of authority owes you something. i have said before im ok with the lax dress code. it has to happen to attract the student of this day. it is also a good business decision. let me ask you this SJ, i know you are wanting to get into real estate apprasils. are you gonna dress with holes in your jeans and have an unclean look when you appraise a house?i think your father is in the same profession? im sure he does not dress like that! i too have friends that are in that business that are younger than me and they do not dress like that. they are certainly casual but professional. you students now probably will not get it until you get out in the real world and that is ok. i like you SJ, consider you a friend and appreicate your views and contributions to LU and this board, but will just have to agree to disagree. one last thing in regard to my comment of christians being held to a higher standard, we are, it is just fact. If you go to LU you are being different than many in the world. you came here to get a quality christian education, and be around other believers, and bring non-christians to the Lord. i never said that christians r better than a non-believer, but its fact that non-belivers look at christians and say" if they are a christian, they need to act a certain way, and present themselves as Christ-Like. i agree with atrain that i do not think God cares if you wear a tie and dress pants to church, but i think God wants us to present ourselves professionally, so my statement is not from right or left field.

[TallyW]

STUDENT- Register. Then read SJ's post. Then read this line: "I'm honestly wondering how many people on here talking about the dress code that have graduated even have a clue about what high school seniors and college underclassmen look at when transferring or picking a college."

Good. Now that you've read the actual line I was referring to you can look in the mirror and repeat "I should not type without reading, I should not type without reading. This will ensure that in the future when you try to come back at someone you will actually look respectable. It's one thing to hold a different opinion (which is part of the fun of the board) but it's another thing to reveal how little effort you put into understanding someone's argument. It shows that you're more interested in being cool than advancing any thought.

It's obvious that I wasn't talking about LU students who have been through 4 years being no different... I was talking about incoming freshman or transfers. The rules definately change people. I actually attended and graduated. Most of the people on this board who whine and complain have only been there a year or so and haven't stopped complaining since they've walked on campus. If you actually stop and look around you may realize how amazing of an experience you have. But if you continue with your "I know it all because I'm 17 years old" attitude you've had since finishing up your first stage of puberty... you will not be able to appreciate anything and you'll end up being the guy people laugh at but not the guy people take seriously.


SJ- I have to agree with the guys just above me. It doesn't matter how nasty of a haircut or how messed up the jeans are that an 18 year old wants to wear... LU isn't a continuation of your local high school or community college. In this day of "individualism" it strikes me odd that so many wild and crazy young people would want their University to conform. To think there is a school that actually gives you a few years training on respecting authority, being active in the community and making your spiritual life an active part of your life.... I'd think that would make some non-conformist students pretty excited. Not to mention that the rules provide a degree of seperation. We don't have a huge problem with crime on campus IN PART to what the school puts up with. You don't get to the very edge and ledge of behavior and expect that environment to have no effect. It does. Are there a few bad apples? Sure... but the culture of LU (and Lynchburg for that matter) is rare among major colleges/universities.

I have spoken ad nauseum about the fact that our culture is becoming more welfare driven where students (who most do NOT pay a lick for their education SJ... MOMMY AND DADDY DO) believe that they are 'owed' the right to determine policy and procedure at the school for the short 4-5 years they are on campus. Nothing in life works that way. Your job will not allow you to walk in and start laying down policy unless you own the business or you have proven yourself worthy of getting a position to make those decisions. 18-20 year old students generally have a short-sighted view of the situation and would tend to make decisions in their own best interest... not in the best interest of the University.

[belcherboy]

I know this doesn't add much to the debate, but anyone who chooses a school based on its dress code doesn't seem real wise to me. Especially with today's modified dress code (I graduated in 2000 and pretty much wore a tie my entire college experience). The one thing I loved about Liberty, as compared to visiting my friends at other universities, was the way the girls always looked dressed up. LU's dress code made people look better IMO. Seeing a girl go to class with sweats, hair pulled back, and no makeup rarely worked for the many girls I saw on my buddies campuses. It was nice to see a girl wearing a nice skirt/dress pants and looking like she spent a few minutes getting ready in the morning.

Now that I think about it, maybe that is why it took me 6 1/2 years to finish. Maybe dress code can hurt you academically.

If you want a christian education, I can't imagine going to a better place than Liberty. I've visited Cedarville, BBC, Cornerstone, heard of Bob Jones, and known several that have attended Clearwater, Pensacola, and Samford. If you are looking for the all around christian university (academics, sports, facilities, world class speakers, social events, spiritually challenging, etc.) Liberty has the best balance IMO. If you choose a christian school based on a dress code, you open yourself up to the possibility of a lesser all around education. Just my 2 cents.

[ALUmnus]

I've always felt a lot of this angst towards the rules has a lot to do with immaturity. And don't tell me how old you are or how I'm "judging" you, because maturity doesn't always come with age. I attended in the late 90's when ties were still required, and I know plenty of kids who had no clue ties were required. But guess what, they dealt with it, and had amazing college experiences. LUConn is right, priorities are way off here.

[PAmedic]

ok this is only getting a LITTLE out of hand. Everybody needs to lighten up.

its obvious there are 2 trains of thought on this one (no pun intended ATRAIN!) so I'll post one last point and then retire to the FB thread

The old hags and neo-cons are correct- you won't be able to dress like this in the work force, and there are also many non-work situations in which casual dress is NOT acceptable.

SJ and STUDENT are also correct: The people being affected by the LU dress code are students NOW, and are not in the work force. They will have time for all that later- and, I dare say, will learn to adapt to business-casual or business dress when the time comes.

LET THEM BE "KIDS" !(no offense intended, guys)
Personally, I think a lot of the attitude from alums stems from the fact that we secretly wish these guys HAD to go thru what we did- like the trap some of us parents nearly fell into: parenting like OUR parents did (which we HATED- "because I SAID SO")

we all need to relax, and agree to disagree on this one. GO FLAMES!

(TALLY I STILL LOVE YOU)

[STUDENT]

Tally, don't lecture me about reading other people's posts. I never said that I had a problem with the dress code as it is now. My problem is with people that think the dress code we have now is bringing down the school. It's ridiculous to think that the school is less academically and spiritually beneficial because of the dress code. Yes, I did however say that I have a problem with the hair code and that is because it is inherently unfair to enforce the rule equally. Every RA seems to have a different definition about what the hair code is (I have heard specifically different ones from multiple RA's). Also, everyone's hair is different and no one's hair is the same at all times. I can tell you that many guys at Liberty spend way too much time worrying about whether their hair is in hair code as they should and THAT takes away from learning. Because of how my RA interpreted the hair code, how he enforced it differently for everyone (seemingly dependent on how much he liked them), and how my hair is, the only way I could stay in hair code with to keep my hair really really short (much shorter than most other people had to keep theirs) and quite frankly I didn't want to deal with that.

Complaining goes both ways and you are a hypocrite to act like we can't have disagreements with the dress code when many people on your side also have disagreements with it (your side wanting it more strict and our side wanting it the same or less strict).

It's also easy for you to pick out problems with other people's posts and say that I am not presenting a good argument, but if you have a problem with my argument, address it specifically.

Of course it's easy for people to say the hair code shouldn't be a problem when they don't like to grow their hair long, or the dress code isn't a problem when they like to dress up (or are already out of college and like someone else said "just want us to suffer the same fate as them").

I really don't want to hear about all of this "research" that has been done to "prove" your points. I'm relying on personal experience and actually knowing people from the present student body for my argument, not hypothetical situations.

There is another argument you guys are using that is not holding up. No, most people do NOT go to a school BECAUSE of the dress code or the rules. However, many people choose not to come to a school in large part due to the rules. I also made it clear before that I don't have a problem with the rules that we have to benefit us spiritually such as no alcohol. I just don't understand why it bothers YOU so much if someone else stays up all night, doesn't take school seriously, or dresses like a slob. Worry about yourself and if he doesn't have the discipline to be a good student and take care of his body then he'll suffer the consequences. College is about learning to be an adult and sometimes too many rules hinders that.

I'm probably not going to register either because I'm going to spend way too much time on here disagreeing with most of you guys if I do.

[bigsmooth]

no one said that the dress code change is bringing down the school. lighten up, everyone can express opinions and it is obvious this topic is split. it sounds like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. come over to the football board and take out some aggressions

[STUDENT]

Before anyone says anything about it. I noticed that I made a couple typos in my post, but I can't edit it since I'm not registered. Actually, I am just bored, I like to argue (sometimes too much), and I've wanted to speak on this topic for awhile so I'm kind of letting it all out now. Also, from my point of view it seems like some of you have a chip on your shoulder. I have to give credit to PAMedic for giving a nice, relaxed, well balance post.

[LUconn]

There is another argument you guys are using that is not holding up. No, most people do NOT go to a school BECAUSE of the dress code or the rules. However, many people choose not to come to a school in large part due to the rules. I also made it clear before that I don't have a problem with the rules that we have to benefit us spiritually such as no alcohol. I just don't understand why it bothers YOU so much if someone else stays up all night, doesn't take school seriously, or dresses like a slob. Worry about yourself and if he doesn't have the discipline to be a good student and take care of his body then he'll suffer the consequences. College is about learning to be an adult and sometimes too many rules hinders that.

Generally, I don't think this is true. There's no statistics or anything but I really think students who don't want to come here because of a class-time dress code are a less than signifcant number. But there's no data that says so, so it's not worth arguing over.

As for why we care: We're Alumni! The diploma on my wall relects the Liberty of today, not of when I went there. And the students of today, represent that very same Liberty. If there's an erosion of the disipline/rules and we're on our slippery slope downward in that department, I'm gonna care.

[STUDENT]

I can see why you would care about the well-being of the school LUConn. I just want to say that I am done with this thread unless people have questions for me about my posts. I don't plan on being a regular poster, but I just felt like weighing in on this topic.

[LUconn]

Let's argue some more!


No but seriously this board is a lot more fun when we talk sports. You should be a regular poster and avoid this section all together. I hope you didn't get a combative impression of us from you time posting.

[Sly Fox]

Come on, STUDENT. Go ahead and register and stick around. One of the cool things of this boarde is that we can all respect and have a good time with different points of view.

[PAmedic]

I have to give credit to PAMedic for giving a nice, relaxed, well balance post.

This young man is obviously VERY intelligent and quite perceptive- a fine example of everything that is great about today's Liberty University.

[TallyW]

PAMedic, I'm offended. You're not getting a Christmas card

STUDENT-
- Your problem with the hair code is its enforcement. That's a legit gripe... but we don't throw out policy simply on enforcement, we find ways to enforce more fairly.

- "It's also easy for you to pick out problems with other people's posts and say that I am not presenting a good argument, but if you have a problem with my argument, address it specifically." ---- Well, I thought I did... but once again I don't know that you read my post. It's hard to hold a conversation when half of the participants don't respond to what was being said.

- "I really don't want to hear about all of this "research" that has been done to "prove" your points. I'm relying on personal experience and actually knowing people from the present student body for my argument, not hypothetical situations. " --- Well, that about says it. You might as well quit school now. It goes to show how open you are to actually learning how to handle yourself in the real world. Knowledge of a topic goes a lot further than a blind personal experience. There is a difference between 10 years of experience in a field and 10 years doing the same thing as a first-year guy. Attaining wisdom from ugly things like 'research' and 'proof' allow a person to move past their initial "experience". You should really warm up to facts and data. It will help you in life.


BTW: I love these discussions. Too often times the topics and passions are shallow. When we strike a chord on this board and have some back and forth, it actually allows for many sides to come out. Some people are uncomfortable with conflict... but there is no need to be... conflict brings out better arguments and ultimately brings unity. When we silence a discussion because of debate, we limit ourselves to the same shallow conversation as the day before. Granted, this board shouldn't become an ongoing argument... but I do think it's healthy to allow these debates to run their course and not aim to squelch them. I thought LUConn made a fantastic point about why Alum care so much. If we prematurely stopped the conversation, that insight wouldn't have made it to the board. It's all in good fun for me. Yes I'm passionate about some of these things (and I'm sure current students are also passionate) but this dialogue between grads and future grads is very healthy... IMO

[bigsmooth]

keep it going tally!!! i love how "the student" is trying to gain allies and suck up:D ...BTW im joking around student. and medic when did you become so PC?? im really disappointed in ya my brother. maybe i need to come up to "north philly" with my whoopin stick.

[PAmedic]

Bring it- Whaler.

[bigsmooth]

ahhhhh a whaler crack....im holding the cup!