[JK37]

Oldflame is correct. Continuing to allow the image of LU as a family business will make LU and the leadership to not be taken seriously. That is one of the steps that LU as an institution needs to take, if they want to be taken seriously as an academic institution. Right now, Liberty is a mess with this fiasco, but I wonder if there is a leader out there whos heart strings are being pulled to take over LU as the new President. I hope God blesses us with what need in a President at LU. Go Flames!

I dunno. I like the separation of Church and School

I have mixed feelings about this possibility. I actually like the idea of the church being involved with some sort of spiritual oversight of the school. That is the way things were intended to be from the beginning, and were for a long time. The problem with Jonathan taking a major role is IMHO more one of appearance than function. It would send a message, whether accurate or not, that the university is still a family business.

Two questions:
1) “taken seriously” by WHOM? - there are some on the academic world whose opinions matter zilch to me.

2) Are the two options necessarily mutually exclusive - Jonathan for spiritual oversight of admins - including the new president brought on to lead new direction. Certainly doesn’t mean Jonathan runs the university. Just that the university finally has strong spiritual oversight again.

[ballcoach15]

In my opinion, depending on who the new president is, he probably will not need anyone to spiritual oversight him, especially if he has a Pastoral background.

[Jonathan Carone]

Everyone needs spiritual oversight. It’s part of discipleship.

[thepostman]

In my opinion, depending on who the new president is, he probably will not need anyone to spiritual oversight him, especially if he has a Pastoral background.

I couldn't disagree with this any more. We all need spiritual oversight and Pastor's probably even more so since they are responsible for their congregation.

[Purple Haize]

Liberty University is an "arm" of TRBC. Even though Liberty has grown from the original 154 students in 1971, the school is still "in the church yard".

They are now old enough to move out on their own

[paradox]

Yeah, the right frontman can make all the difference. Think Bono or Mike Jagger. I understand that a board member may have reached out to Eddie Vedder, according to an unnamed source. I would personally advise against this. He's really not that talented, has a bad temper, and is far too green for my taste. But what do I know? Maybe that's just me.

Eddie for chancellor!

Unfortunately, Eddie was just wishful thinking for some. Still a questionable choice nonetheless.

I'm 100% certain that we'd really be looking at the great Jazz Masters right now if any were among the living. And I'm 99% sure that we would be going more piano than brass. Dave Brubeck or Thelonious Monk immediately come to mind. I would have thought Bill Evans, but given the circumstances, we would definitely need a non-smoker

[sstaedtler]

Very scared about Liberty going in a social justice direction. Those who hate Liberty and leftists have looked at this opportunity for years now that Falwell is gone to try to tear down the Christian morals of the school. The next President CANNOT be a social justice warrior. Nasser has sounded a bit too "woke" for me lately.

[Jonathan Carone]

Some of you guys really have to get past your fears with social justice. Many of these issues are legit biblical issues that make us uncomfortable but are things God cares about. Yes, there are very dangerous paths you can walk down once you start going in these directions, but that doesn't mean we avoid them all together. Jesus himself said his path is narrow. It's going to be hard, and it will take a skilled leader to navigate them in ways that are gospel focused and not reputation motivated, but that's why that leader is going to get paid a lot of money.

[thepostman]

1. Nothing about what is covered here has anything to do with being "woke". Here is the statement from Liberty:

https://www.liberty.edu/news/2020/09/08 ... er-8-2020/

2. This fear is totally unfounded but I get it. We are constantly sent messages of fear by some of our top religious and political leaders that it is difficult to filter out that noise and avoid being so fearful.

3. Our goal as an institution is to help build a foundation in young people that builds them up in Christ. That is my main concern. All this focus on left wing and right wing poltical rhetoric has taken our eye off that mission. I hope the next president does a better job on maintaining an upward focus as opposed to a left or right focus.

[Jonathan Carone]

That statement already is a giant shift in the right direction.

[JK37]

Agreed.

I wonder if KE feels any threat to job security now that his old roomie is no longer in power?

[FlamesHighontheTide]

You are correct that many of the issues aka racism, police brutality, unequal treatment of women or minorities in the workplace and murdering babies in the womb are legit Biblical issues. However, the term social justice brings with it the association of BLM, Critical Race Theory/Intersectionality and LGBTQ+. All of these mentioned are un-biblical can come directly from a Godless ideology known as Marxism. Furthermore, the idea of being Woke is going down a rabbit hole that most won't recover from because it promotes white guilt and white privilege. Are there people who promote white privilege? Sure, because sin is in the world. However, to call it a systemic problem that all white people face is erroneous and unbiblical. As Christians, we should be all about justice because our God is. However, as Christians we should be very wary of what is going on right now in Evangelicalism due to all this critical race theory crap infecting the local church through BLM, Social Justice movement and the likes. We must be Biblical not cultural. Scripture teaches that we are not of this world and I fear we are allowing the world to infect how we should interpret the Scriptures.

[Purple Haize]

I’m more for Biblical Justice than Social Justice. But I was also called a Nazi today.

[sstaedtler]

Some of you guys really have to get past your fears with social justice. Many of these issues are legit biblical issues that make us uncomfortable but are things God cares about. Yes, there are very dangerous paths you can walk down once you start going in these directions, but that doesn't mean we avoid them all together. Jesus himself said his path is narrow. It's going to be hard, and it will take a skilled leader to navigate them in ways that are gospel focused and not reputation motivated, but that's why that leader is going to get paid a lot of money.

If social justice involve any of the tenets of Critical Race Theory, which is a completely unbiblical worldview, and flies in the face of Galatians 3:28, then I have the right to be worried. Critical Race Theory has destroyed churches, friendships, marriages. It stereotypes entire groups of people and uses race as a negative adjective. It does not look at the heart, but instead looks at outward appearance exclusively. Nasser brought up I believe Trayvon Martin and possibly Tamir Rice, which are both very, very bad examples to use to try to push social justice. Never did Jesus tell the Jews to overthrow the Romans, their oppressors.

Social justice, even when the intentions start out as good, ends up being poison. Critical Race Theory refuses to look at any factual information. Emotional experiences of minorities are all that matter and can never, ever be questioned, even Jussie Smollett. If you are white and disagree, it's white privilege. If you are black and disagree, it is your self-hate. It is meant not for honest conversation, but to cut off debate. I actually support police reform, but do not support the systemic racism narrative that is being sold by the media and those on the left. To me, single parent homes, along with Democratic policies on education and welfare, intended to help, but really have caused most of the harm and disparity.

[ballcoach15]

You are correct that many of the issues aka racism, police brutality, unequal treatment of women or minorities in the workplace and murdering babies in the womb are legit Biblical issues. However, the term social justice brings with it the association of BLM, Critical Race Theory/Intersectionality and LGBTQ+. All of these mentioned are un-biblical can come directly from a Godless ideology known as Marxism. Furthermore, the idea of being Woke is going down a rabbit hole that most won't recover from because it promotes white guilt and white privilege. Are there people who promote white privilege? Sure, because sin is in the world. However, to call it a systemic problem that all white people face is erroneous and unbiblical. As Christians, we should be all about justice because our God is. However, as Christians we should be very wary of what is going on right now in Evangelicalism due to all this critical race theory crap infecting the local church through BLM, Social Justice movement and the likes. We must be Biblical not cultural. Scripture teaches that we are not of this world and I fear we are allowing the world to infect how we should interpret the Scriptures.

This could very well be the "best post in history" of this message board.

[Jonathan Carone]

In many conservative circles, people talking about Biblical Justice get accused of talking Social Justice. In many cases, the two overlap almost completely which is why the fear exists.

There are plenty of things wrong with CRT, Intersectionality, the BLM organization, but that doesn't mean they are all wrong. Similarly to Darwinism - if you use them as your worldview, you're off base and dangerous. But within each of those theories are true things that are not the danger that conservative political Christians are afraid of. We have to be smart enough to distinguish between what is biblical and what isn't.

I can say Black Lives Matter and be fully in line with the Gospel while also not supporting the BLM organization.

I can say LGBTQ+ deserve legal rights under the constitution of the United States while still thinking God's design for marriage is between a man and a woman.

This either/or idea that is being pushed upon us is the easier option. We have to take the harder road and find where Jesus is in these social movements so we can then leverage the gospel to make an impact in our culture. We need to be able to say, "I agree with you here, but this is where I disagree and here's why."

[sstaedtler]

In many conservative circles, people talking about Biblical Justice get accused of talking Social Justice. In many cases, the two overlap almost completely which is why the fear exists.

There are plenty of things wrong with CRT, Intersectionality, the BLM organization, but that doesn't mean they are all wrong. Similarly to Darwinism - if you use them as your worldview, you're off base and dangerous. But within each of those theories are true things that are not the danger that conservative political Christians are afraid of. We have to be smart enough to distinguish between what is biblical and what isn't.

I can say Black Lives Matter and be fully in line with the Gospel while also not supporting the BLM organization.

I can say LGBTQ+ deserve legal rights under the constitution of the United States while still thinking God's design for marriage is between a man and a woman.

This either/or idea that is being pushed upon us is the easier option. We have to take the harder road and find where Jesus is in these social movements so we can then leverage the gospel to make an impact in our culture. We need to be able to say, "I agree with you here, but this is where I disagree and here's why."

Your last sentence is my whole problem with CRT and some social justice warriors. There isn't any room for disagreement. You either fully believe in 100% systemic racism and white privilege or you are evil. Maybe there are some areas where things are not fully fair that we can work on while admitting their are also cultural issues in play as well. In many of these circles you aren't really a Christian until you read their prescribed books, denounce your whiteness, and lament. I've seen what CRT has done to our own church when we had a youth pastor who believes in this and it is currently dividing everyone.

[Jonathan Carone]

Just because "they" do it, doesn't mean we swing the pendulum back the opposite direction and become teetotalers against it. Our job as Christians is to rise above the noise and find where Jesus is. He is in many of these movements. Not completely. Not even mostly in some situations. But he's there. For us to have an impact on our culture moving forward we can't avoid these things because they're not 100% right. We need to be training our students how to approach the issues from a biblical perspective, calling out evil while pressing into holy. It's going to be really, really hard. But being a Champion has never been easy.

[ballcoach15]

The liberal left wing communist democrats need to be stopped , before they destroy America. Many of their wants go far beyond the Bible and the Constitution. There are elected officials in Washington and Richmond (and other states), who are not fit to shovel manure on a dairy farm, yet they are passing laws to destroy the nation.
And people vote for these wackos.

[FlamesHighontheTide]

Jonathan, it seems to be that you are saying we can use certain parts of these groups & beliefs as analytical tools. Am I off-base with this assessment?

However, God's word tells in Psalms 119:60, "the sum of Your(God's) words are truth." My urgent critique of using these groups and beliefs as analytical tools to help us make a greater impact for the Gospel is this, we don't need to use them if what we have in God's word is complete and lacking nothing. This is what makes God's word all-sufficient aside from God Himself being the divine author. Furthermore, the greater the impact of the Gospel is not depended upon using cultural lessons learned but the greater the impact is found in the Gospel message itself. Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." So thankful that the Gospel is THE POWER regardless of cultural lessons learned. It is it's nature.

[Jonathan Carone]

The message we share doesn't change. It never has and it never will. But the way we share it is always changing. We are constantly learning how people understand things and better ways to communicate to them.

In almost every town Paul visited, whether the beliefs were Christian, Jewish, Greek, whatever, the first thing he did when sharing the Gospel was find a common ground where they could agree. In Acts 17, when Paul was debating with the Greek thinkers (the Mars Hill story), the first thing he does is acknowledge the people he's talking to are religious. He doesn't do it in a condemning way, but as an outsider finding a common ground with someone new. He then spoke into their beliefs, referencing the altar to an unknown god, before then explaining the Gospel within the context of that unknown God. He took the time to acknowledge their beliefs and that he understood them, agreed with their search of a greater being, and then pointed them to the Gospel of Jesus. He even quoted some of their culture back to them while doing it!

One of my favorite descriptions of this scene comes from a book called "Paul and His Team". Here's what the writer (who is a PhD and church planter) wrote:

What’s most notable about Paul’s speech is what he did not say. Paul did not quote Scripture. He did not mention Israel. He did not mention Jerusalem or the temple. He did not men- tion the name of Jesus. He did none of that. That sort of thing would be a perfect strategy for a Jewish audience, who would be familiar with the Old Testament and the idea of a Messiah.

But this was not the synagogue. This was an illustrious council of Athenian thinkers. They were probably unfamiliar with the Jewish Scriptures. Paul knew this, so he sought common ground somewhere else. He commented on their city’s religious climate. He leveraged their altar to an unknown god as a launching point. He spoke about God in somewhat generic terms that would not be too confusing or off-putting. He quoted their own poets to back up his claim that God is not something we create.

Paul wanted to find whatever foothold he could to open up a dialogue with the Athenians. He wanted them to feel like he understood them and could speak their language. I’m betting Paul did not view this speech as all he wanted to say, but his best opening statement in what he hoped would become an ongoing discussion. He could more fully explain the gospel through the lenses of Scripture and Jesus’ ministry on another occasion; the goal of this initial encounter was to create some intrigue and gain a receptive audience.

We have to learn how to communicate with our culture in this way. When talking specifically about social issues, we have to take the time to learn the reason the person across from us believes the way they believe. We can't just write it off as dangerous rhetoric rooted in Marxism (even though it is!) and only talk about the perils of it.

We have to find our places of agreement, show understanding, and then present a better way.

[ballcoach15]

"be not of the world"

I see more and more people in the church trying to, "be of the world", instead of standing firm IAW the Bible. Sometimes when one leans , they fall.

[flameshaw]

IMHO, social justice is just a code word for reverse discrimination. Does racism exist? Absolutely. Was slavery wrong? Absolutely. Is continuing racism the answer to make up for past racism? Absolutely not.
The goals of social justice radicals are to punish white people and to spread racism and division between all people. It is undeniable.
It is a fact that almost every race has been a victim of slavery. It is also a fact that almost every race has been slave owners. The problem I have with the social justice movement, is that 90% of them also support radical leftist politicians, that have done nothing positive for this country. They have all failed.
Same for the diversity movement. It is racist. I have asked this many times, in many forums and still have no positive answers volunteered. What is just one thing that diversity, for diversity's sake, ever accomplished? I can give many personal examples, where it has been harmful and racist.
I have not visited a couple of the threads here on purpose, ie. the DT thread. Honestly, I am embarrassed at the many "woke" people, who have attended/graduated and are attending LU. Frankly, I am happy that my degree does not say LU on it. I have felt this way waaaaay before Jr's latest garbage.
There is no doubt, if we continue down this path, we will no longer be a distinctively Christian university. My only connection to LU right now, is the athletic program. My roots run pretty deep there, but even now, they are waning pretty significantly.
I love LU and hope that the new president will return to the path of spiritual emphasis and social conservatism. If this doesn't happen, we will quickly become just another Wake Forest, SMU, Baylor, TCU. etc. If/when that happens, I will no longer be able to emotionally invested. Maybe that would be the best thing in the long run anyway. Just go woke and go broke and get it over with. It is a shame, because there are still many, many, good people at LU.

[cruzan_flame13]

Some of you guys really have to get past your fears with social justice. Many of these issues are legit biblical issues that make us uncomfortable but are things God cares about. Yes, there are very dangerous paths you can walk down once you start going in these directions, but that doesn't mean we avoid them all together. Jesus himself said his path is narrow. It's going to be hard, and it will take a skilled leader to navigate them in ways that are gospel focused and not reputation motivated, but that's why that leader is going to get paid a lot of money.

If social justice involve any of the tenets of Critical Race Theory, which is a completely unbiblical worldview, and flies in the face of Galatians 3:28, then I have the right to be worried. Critical Race Theory has destroyed churches, friendships, marriages. It stereotypes entire groups of people and uses race as a negative adjective. It does not look at the heart, but instead looks at outward appearance exclusively. Nasser brought up I believe Trayvon Martin and possibly Tamir Rice, which are both very, very bad examples to use to try to push social justice. Never did Jesus tell the Jews to overthrow the Romans, their oppressors.

Social justice, even when the intentions start out as good, ends up being poison. Critical Race Theory refuses to look at any factual information. Emotional experiences of minorities are all that matter and can never, ever be questioned, even Jussie Smollett. If you are white and disagree, it's white privilege. If you are black and disagree, it is your self-hate. It is meant not for honest conversation, but to cut off debate. I actually support police reform, but do not support the systemic racism narrative that is being sold by the media and those on the left. To me, single parent homes, along with Democratic policies on education and welfare, intended to help, but really have caused most of the harm and disparity.

Those policies were never entered to help. It just change the concept of slavery to dependency. There was already an issue with these in the 60's when these policies were form. To be exact these policies are even worst than livestyles for minorites during Jim Crow. Let that sink in. You can get more details from Thomas Sowell's books and even his interviews at the Hoover Institute (find on youtube if you'd like to watch and learn real history and facts). Our system that we're used to is filled with propaganda and indoctrination. This is not a left-right issue when we were warned from people in the 60's who were both conservative and liberal. Now people just labeled it conspiracy theory because we were trained to eliminate anything that not doesn't follow the propaganda that was taught. Our education, policies [foreign/domestic] and economic is not different from other societies that we usually disavow. The fact that we Christians thinking that we should give into these divisive, confusion and deceitful platforms exposed how worldly the church has become. There's only one race with ethnicities who are all one through Christ. Everything we are seeing opposes this and is only using death and pain to move their wicked deeds forward. This is not a battle between flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness. Politicians, celebrities and elitists are about self and use this division for their gain. We should never be about these movements and theories because they are not for the One true God. We can love and share the gospel of Christ, but we don't have to give in. Some comments on here are trying to mix the two and try to make it seem like it's Christlike. Jesus wasn't soft and giving in to the rulers and their twisted ideology of the law. In their perspective and feelings, He was actually really harsh and blashemic. We will be enemies to the world as Jesus told His disciples.

[Jonathan Carone]

"be not of the world"

I see more and more people in the church trying to, "be of the world", instead of standing firm IAW the Bible. Sometimes when one leans , they fall.

I try not to respond to ball coach's out of touch-ness too often, but I can't let this one go. Forgive me.

The idea you presented completely leaves out the other half of that command. We are absolutely sent into the world. We cannot accomplish that mission and directive if we sit on the sidelines.

It's easier to say we're not of this world and retreat into our Christian circles. There's no real sacrifice there. It doesn't take learning new things or wrestling with ideas different than your own.

Champions for Christ do the hard work. We learn what the Bible actually teaches on things and how it applies to those around us. We have solid convictions while understanding like minded people can also disagree with the application of scripture.

We also learn what the world around us believes so we can speak into it and impact it for the Gospel.

That's the fullness of the command.