[JDUB]

here is what william shatner has to say about it

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

I did actually read it all. And wow, it completely change my mind. Every student on campus should be given a gun immediately for their safety, this is clearyly the safest the school would ever be, and should absolutely be implemented.

Another story, based on real experience than on fact.

Many remember the guy who went around primarily east campus for a while stealing lap tops, ipods, cameras, etc. Im the guy that caught him and is testifying in court against him when it goes to trial.

Would he have still broken into my room to steal my laptop if he knew I had a gun? Who knows. But under concealed carry laws, he wouldnt be able to know because I cant go around flaunting "Gun in my room."

Even so, when he did break into my room, my first thought wasnt "dang I wish I had a gun right now" but rather to get out of bed and chase after him in my undies and glasses.

Would I have felt safer with a gun? No. I still chased after him, not knowing whether or not he himself had a gun. Would a gun have helped in this situation? No. Had I had one and pulled it on him, the current state of courts would have been that it was racial discrimination or something retarded that in the end, I would have gotten in trouble and not him.

Even so, someone raised the idea that students could keep guns in a safe in their dorm. Im sure Chris would have had no problem if I was like "hey wait a second, I need to put in the combination for my safe across the room to get my gun to scare you."

This is the kind of "incident" you are saying we should have guns on campus for, but this is evidence that a gun wont solve those kind of incidents.

You have said people who want to carry guns on campus already do anyways. Im sure most of the people who want to do stuff to harm students already know this. Advertising it and allowing it isnt going to all of a sudden make them say "hmm maybe I shouldnt try and kill my class, because someone in my class might have a gun and I dont want to get hurt"

Plus, what about the classes that dont have the gun carrying type. What if we allow concealed carry, and then the shooter just goes into a nursing class or a FACS class? He is still going to be able to shoot people before anyone with a gun gets there. So then what do you tell their parents? "Well we thought the best Idea would be to allow concealed carry but apparently that doesnt solve all of lifes problems and we should have rethought it a little better"?

[newandimproved]

fantastic post!!!

[Sly Fox]

The fishwrap weighs in with its Op/Ed ...

Just How Would Concealed Guns Make LU Safer?

The News & Advance
Published: October 16, 2008

Do students at Liberty University really need to carry concealed weapons with them to classes and elsewhere on campus? Do they consider life on the growing campus so unsafe that they need a pistol to protect themselves as they make their daily rounds?

Those are issues that will be brought to the university’s board of trustees next year. It’s fine for the trustees to consider the questions. But let’s hope sanity prevails over the discussion. If so, the board will either not consider a vote allowing concealed weapons or it will vote against the measure.

Click Here for Full Story

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

Glad some lynchburg citizens have some sense.

Students dont need guns in dorms or in class.

[asforme]

I did actually read it all. And wow, it completely change my mind. Every student on campus should be given a gun immediately for their safety, this is clearyly the safest the school would ever be, and should absolutely be implemented.

Another story, based on real experience than on fact.

Many remember the guy who went around primarily east campus for a while stealing lap tops, ipods, cameras, etc. Im the guy that caught him and is testifying in court against him when it goes to trial.

Would he have still broken into my room to steal my laptop if he knew I had a gun? Who knows. But under concealed carry laws, he wouldnt be able to know because I cant go around flaunting "Gun in my room."

Even so, when he did break into my room, my first thought wasnt "dang I wish I had a gun right now" but rather to get out of bed and chase after him in my undies and glasses.

Would I have felt safer with a gun? No. I still chased after him, not knowing whether or not he himself had a gun. Would a gun have helped in this situation? No. Had I had one and pulled it on him, the current state of courts would have been that it was racial discrimination or something retarded that in the end, I would have gotten in trouble and not him.

Even so, someone raised the idea that students could keep guns in a safe in their dorm. Im sure Chris would have had no problem if I was like "hey wait a second, I need to put in the combination for my safe across the room to get my gun to scare you."

This is the kind of "incident" you are saying we should have guns on campus for, but this is evidence that a gun wont solve those kind of incidents.

If you had used a gun in the above situation you would have deservedly gotten in trouble. That is in no way a justified use of deadly force, you would know this if you had attended the class required to get a concealed carry permit. To justify using deadly force, or even brandishing you must have a legitimate, well founded fear of loss of your life or great bodily harm. People who have gone through the process to get concealed carry permits all know this.

As for whether or not he would have made the same choices to commit theft if he knew students could be armed, who knows, but data from 40 states that now have shall-issue concealed carry certainly points to a dramatic reduction in crime.

Regardless, this is not the kind of incodent I think we should have guns on campus for. I think state licensed concealed carry permit holders should be allowed to carry on campus to have a chance at preventing loss of life and great bodily harm. That means murder, rape and the like, not theft. Virginia law does not allow use of deadly force to protect property.

You have said people who want to carry guns on campus already do anyways. Im sure most of the people who want to do stuff to harm students already know this. Advertising it and allowing it isnt going to all of a sudden make them say "hmm maybe I shouldnt try and kill my class, because someone in my class might have a gun and I dont want to get hurt"

Plus, what about the classes that dont have the gun carrying type. What if we allow concealed carry, and then the shooter just goes into a nursing class or a FACS class? He is still going to be able to shoot people before anyone with a gun gets there. So then what do you tell their parents? "Well we thought the best Idea would be to allow concealed carry but apparently that doesnt solve all of lifes problems and we should have rethought it a little better"?

I didn't say concealed carry permit holders already carry on campus, but criminals do not respect weak rules and laws. They are the ones already carrying on campus. Just this week a convicted felon who is not allowed to even legally own a firearm was arrested at Danville community college and was armed. This somehow does not bother you, but allowing people who are properly licensed and statistically the most law abiding citizens in the country does bother you. I simply can't understand it.

As further evidence of you generalizations and stereotypes you ask about the "gun carrying type". There is no "gun carrying type", people of all walks of life and for individual reasons choose to get a concealed carry permit. There are many women who get them because they acknowledge that without an equalizer they stand no chance against a powerful man who's trying to rape them.

But if nothing works and someone happens to engage in a massacre somewhere that is not labeled as a "gun free zone", there is nothing to explain to the parents. The chances of the killer having had a concealed carry permit are next to nothing, but even if they did, THEY WENT ON A KILLING SPREE! Are you suggesting that if the school had a rule forbidding guns on campus than he would have turned around and went home, "aww man, I can't kill people here, it's a gun free zone!". Virginia Tech tried that, they had a lot of explaining to do and ended up paying $100,000 to the parents of each victim hoping that the families wouldn't sue the school for removing the ability of the innocent to defend themselves. At least without arbitrary rules, the potential victims have an option.

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

The VT shooter was a law abiding citizen fit to own a gun and carry a concealed carry license, at least in the minds of the people who gave him the such licenses.

[LUconn]

The VT shooter was a law abiding citizen fit to own a gun and carry a concealed carry license, at least in the minds of the people who gave him the such licenses.

Source. First time I've ever heard that.

[Cider Jim]

I thought he bought one of his guns off of Ebay?

[qkslvrsrfrboy]

as for my last statement, read above a couple posts of mine where I initially brought that out.

I did actually read it all. And wow, it completely change my mind. Every student on campus should be given a gun immediately for their safety, this is clearyly the safest the school would ever be, and should absolutely be implemented.

Another story, based on real experience than on fact.

Many remember the guy who went around primarily east campus for a while stealing lap tops, ipods, cameras, etc. Im the guy that caught him and is testifying in court against him when it goes to trial.

Would he have still broken into my room to steal my laptop if he knew I had a gun? Who knows. But under concealed carry laws, he wouldnt be able to know because I cant go around flaunting "Gun in my room."

Even so, when he did break into my room, my first thought wasnt "dang I wish I had a gun right now" but rather to get out of bed and chase after him in my undies and glasses.

Would I have felt safer with a gun? No. I still chased after him, not knowing whether or not he himself had a gun. Would a gun have helped in this situation? No. Had I had one and pulled it on him, the current state of courts would have been that it was racial discrimination or something retarded that in the end, I would have gotten in trouble and not him.

Even so, someone raised the idea that students could keep guns in a safe in their dorm. Im sure Chris would have had no problem if I was like "hey wait a second, I need to put in the combination for my safe across the room to get my gun to scare you."

This is the kind of "incident" you are saying we should have guns on campus for, but this is evidence that a gun wont solve those kind of incidents.

If you had used a gun in the above situation you would have deservedly gotten in trouble. That is in no way a justified use of deadly force, you would know this if you had attended the class required to get a concealed carry permit. To justify using deadly force, or even brandishing you must have a legitimate, well founded fear of loss of your life or great bodily harm. People who have gone through the process to get concealed carry permits all know this.

As for whether or not he would have made the same choices to commit theft if he knew students could be armed, who knows, but data from 40 states that now have shall-issue concealed carry certainly points to a dramatic reduction in crime.

Regardless, this is not the kind of incodent I think we should have guns on campus for. I think state licensed concealed carry permit holders should be allowed to carry on campus to have a chance at preventing loss of life and great bodily harm. That means murder, rape and the like, not theft. Virginia law does not allow use of deadly force to protect property.

You have said people who want to carry guns on campus already do anyways. Im sure most of the people who want to do stuff to harm students already know this. Advertising it and allowing it isnt going to all of a sudden make them say "hmm maybe I shouldnt try and kill my class, because someone in my class might have a gun and I dont want to get hurt"

Plus, what about the classes that dont have the gun carrying type. What if we allow concealed carry, and then the shooter just goes into a nursing class or a FACS class? He is still going to be able to shoot people before anyone with a gun gets there. So then what do you tell their parents? "Well we thought the best Idea would be to allow concealed carry but apparently that doesnt solve all of lifes problems and we should have rethought it a little better"?

I didn't say concealed carry permit holders already carry on campus, but criminals do not respect weak rules and laws. They are the ones already carrying on campus. Just this week a convicted felon who is not allowed to even legally own a firearm was arrested at Danville community college and was armed. This somehow does not bother you, but allowing people who are properly licensed and statistically the most law abiding citizens in the country does bother you. I simply can't understand it.

As further evidence of you generalizations and stereotypes you ask about the "gun carrying type". There is no "gun carrying type", people of all walks of life and for individual reasons choose to get a concealed carry permit. There are many women who get them because they acknowledge that without an equalizer they stand no chance against a powerful man who's trying to rape them.

But if nothing works and someone happens to engage in a massacre somewhere that is not labeled as a "gun free zone", there is nothing to explain to the parents. The chances of the killer having had a concealed carry permit are next to nothing, but even if they did, THEY WENT ON A KILLING SPREE! Are you suggesting that if the school had a rule forbidding guns on campus than he would have turned around and went home, "aww man, I can't kill people here, it's a gun free zone!". Virginia Tech tried that, they had a lot of explaining to do and ended up paying $100,000 to the parents of each victim hoping that the families wouldn't sue the school for removing the ability of the innocent to defend themselves. At least without arbitrary rules, the potential victims have an option.

You have built your entire argument on the idea that guns scare people from doind bad things to good people, and that that is safe, and that its self defense. Now you say that if I was to draw my gun to make someone leave so that I could defend myself in case he had anything, It would be illegal. So am i supposed to just say "I have a concealed carry permit, but I cant show it to you"? What good is the gun then? Purely to feel more high and mighty about myself.

[SuperJon]

so if you are in favor of staff and faculty having them but not students, what about students who are also staff?

Full time faculty/staff. No student workers. No part-time workers.

also, what extreme emotions do college kids go through that regular people don't?

Ok, maybe I should have clarified. College students and "Adults" go through the same emotions a lot of the time, but "Adults" are more mature and have better decision making. It comes with life. The older you get the more mature you get and the better you can handle things. Also, as mundane as it may sound, "Adults" are more than likely getting more sleep than students. Say what you want, but students make stupid decisions because they're running on a lack of sleep. Saying they'd shoot someone is an extreme, but it's an extreme I'd like to stay away from.

The way the brain works and decisions are made changes from the time someone is in college to the time they're 25-30-35 years old. In college, it's awesome to watch crap blow up and to be destructive and put bubbles in a fountain and all kinds of other stupid stuff. As you get older, those things stop being "fun." Some kid that can legally carry on campus might thing it'd be fun to shoot a groundhog from across the parking lot just to do it. Who's to say that someone walks in front of him or he doesn't see someone? Do you want to take that chance? And before you tell me the people that get concealed permits are the ones who wouldn't do that I will tell you you're full of crap. College kids think a certain way whether they carry a gun of not.

Lastly, college students, especially males, like to show things off. If they get a new toy, they show it off. If they get a new girlfriend, they show it off. If they get a new gun, they're going to show it off. They're going to show their buddies. The concealed carry kid might know to keep the safety on. One of his buddies might know to keep the safeties. However, Dumb Friend (and there's always one) might say, "Oh, what's this do" and do something stupid. Once again, an extreme situation but one that I don't want to have happen. How many times have we seen people get shot because they were cleaning their gun and it went off? Add to that the mentality of college guys to show things off, and it's not a good situation.

[Hold My Own]

I thought he bought one of his guns off of Ebay?

He bought them off the same place I did on the internet...not ebay though

[asforme]

The VT shooter was a law abiding citizen fit to own a gun and carry a concealed carry license, at least in the minds of the people who gave him the such licenses.

Absolutely incorrect, he did NOT have a concealed carry permit, and if the state authorities did their job he would have not bought his guns legally. His metal evaluation already disqualified him from buying a gun, but the state failed to report his mental status to NICS. And he was not a "law abiding citizen", he was carrying his guns illegally without a permit and then preceded to shoot people. The rules did nothing but ensure that he wouldn't be met with resistance.

You have built your entire argument on the idea that guns scare people from doind bad things to good people, and that that is safe, and that its self defense. Now you say that if I was to draw my gun to make someone leave so that I could defend myself in case he had anything, It would be illegal. So am i supposed to just say "I have a concealed carry permit, but I cant show it to you"? What good is the gun then? Purely to feel more high and mighty about myself.

You would benefit greatly from taking one of the concealed carry classes that are required to get a permit. Lethal force is not justified in the absence of a real threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Ok, maybe I should have clarified. College students and "Adults" go through the same emotions a lot of the time, but "Adults" are more mature and have better decision making. It comes with life. The older you get the more mature you get and the better you can handle things. Also, as mundane as it may sound, "Adults" are more than likely getting more sleep than students. Say what you want, but students make stupid decisions because they're running on a lack of sleep. Saying they'd shoot someone is an extreme, but it's an extreme I'd like to stay away from.

You use the word adult and students like they're mutually exclusive. There are students who are adults, the age requirement for getting a concealed carry permit is 21. We have commuter students who are raising families, who have done tours in Iraq or who are simply looking for additional education so they can change careers. Go to some of the night classes at LU and look at how many adults are there.

The way the brain works and decisions are made changes from the time someone is in college to the time they're 25-30-35 years old. In college, it's awesome to watch crap blow up and to be destructive and put bubbles in a fountain and all kinds of other stupid stuff. As you get older, those things stop being "fun." Some kid that can legally carry on campus might thing it'd be fun to shoot a groundhog from across the parking lot just to do it. Who's to say that someone walks in front of him or he doesn't see someone? Do you want to take that chance? And before you tell me the people that get concealed permits are the ones who wouldn't do that I will tell you you're full of crap. College kids think a certain way whether they carry a gun of not.

Lastly, college students, especially males, like to show things off. If they get a new toy, they show it off. If they get a new girlfriend, they show it off. If they get a new gun, they're going to show it off. They're going to show their buddies. The concealed carry kid might know to keep the safety on. One of his buddies might know to keep the safeties. However, Dumb Friend (and there's always one) might say, "Oh, what's this do" and do something stupid. Once again, an extreme situation but one that I don't want to have happen. How many times have we seen people get shot because they were cleaning their gun and it went off? Add to that the mentality of college guys to show things off, and it's not a good situation.

These students are already carrying off campus. These same 21 year old students who live off campus strap guns to their hips and go to movies, shopping and nearly anywhere else they want to in Virginia. They are not shooting groundhogs, brandishing recklessly, or giving loaded guns to their friends to play with. It's just not happening. Why would that suddenly change because they crossed property lines and are now on campus?

[SuperJon]

There are some commuters that fall into what you say, but the majority of the commuters are 21-23 year old college students who didn't go to Iraq, don't have families, and simply don't want to live on campus.

[asforme]

There are some commuters that fall into what you say, but the majority of the commuters are 21-23 year old college students who didn't go to Iraq, don't have families, and simply don't want to live on campus.

Regardless you still don't seem to be able to be able to explain what makes you think that a 21-23 year old college student who doesn't want to live on campus that goes through the bureaucracy of getting a concealed carry permit and responsibly carries a gun elsewhere would suddenly decided to do so irresponsibly simply because they turned onto University Blvd.

[SuperJon]

And I'm not saying they definitely would. I just want to eliminate the possibility completely.

You have yet to give a reason why our campus needs guns.

[Realist]

And I'm not saying they definitely would. I just want to eliminate the possibility completely.

You have yet to give a reason why our campus needs guns.

When the war comes with Bob Jones you guys will have something to fight their arsenal with.

That's all I could come up with

[The Wrath]

You don't need guns!!!

If there's any smiting to be done, it shall be smitten by me!!!

And my smiting is much smitier than yours!!!

[asforme]

And I'm not saying they definitely would. I just want to eliminate the possibility completely.

You have yet to give a reason why our campus needs guns.

I've posted countless data that shows that licensed concealed carry reduces crime. It consistently has done so in the 40 states where it is now legal and in the 11 campuses where it is not prohibited. There is real factual evidence that concealed carry will reduce crime and make campus safer, where on the other hand all you have is the "possibility" that a permit holder would do something stupid, a possibility that has not been shown to occur.

[SuperJon]

What's the point though? If we had a crime problem, then sure. We don't have a problem though. Everything we have here could be solved by more lights on sidewalks. Your data that you keep clinging to is completely irrelevant when adapted to Liberty University.

[asforme]

I think 4 forcible sex offenses last year is too much. And why should we wait for a disaster before taking a precaution that has no documented risks? All the risks you can come up with are mere figments of an unfounded hypothesis.

[SuperJon]

The offenses can be prevented by better lighting and a call system with LUPD. The chances of those girls carrying a weapon are slim to none and slim's out to lunch.

Also, while I feel terrible for those four girls, that's a very low number. At other schools, four sexual offenses is common for a couple weeks or a month, not the entire school year.

[asforme]

The offenses can be prevented by better lighting and a call system with LUPD. The chances of those girls carrying a weapon are slim to none and slim's out to lunch.

Also, while I feel terrible for those four girls, that's a very low number. At other schools, four sexual offenses is common for a couple weeks or a month, not the entire school year.

At the schools that currently allow concealed carry, four is a very high number.

BYU: 0 (30,000 students)
BTW Also 0 weapons violations, that means no-one waving around guns or shooting groundhogs

Utah U: 2 (28,000 students)
BTW Also 0 weapons violations, that means no-one waving around guns or shooting groundhogs

Just from looking at their crime reports

[RagingTireFire]

I think 4 forcible sex offenses last year is too much. And why should we wait for a disaster before taking a precaution that has no documented risks? All the risks you can come up with are mere figments of an unfounded hypothesis.

Sex offense is a whole other area that you don't want you go into. Basically, what constitutes a "sex offense" can be anything from outright rape to a whole litany of other things that, while wildly inappropriate, aren't close to being things worth shooting someone over.

If you really want to take precautions to prevent disasters, take the precautions that would actually prevent the disaster from happening. The guy at VT didn't just wake up one morning and decide, "I'm gonna go a-shootin' today." There were numerous trouble signs and numerous people who recognized those signs but, he still fell through the cracks. LU would be far better off fixing those same cracks on their campus and in their administration than to hope that a gun in every classroom will save everyone.

The bottom line is if you're going to carry a concealed weapon, you are -- at least in theory -- prepared to use it. That is, you are prepared to shoot somebody. That is, at best, an extreme solution to a problem the campus simply does not have.

[asforme]

The bottom line is if you're going to carry a concealed weapon, you are -- at least in theory -- prepared to use it. That is, you are prepared to shoot somebody. That is, at best, an extreme solution to a problem the campus simply does not have, so why is it such a good idea?

VT didn't have a problem before April 16th either. Do people have to die here at LU before you will consider it an issue? LU is not responsible for keeping us safe, they cannot patch all the cracks, and attempting to do so would be a disaster that would result in every other student having forced psychological evaluations.

Allowing licensed students to prepare for self defense costs the university nothing, it has no documented negative effects and based on where all of the mass shootings have occurred in the past there is a good reason to believe that the policy alone would serve as a deterrent to a would be gunman. It is not an extreme solution, nobody is being forced to do anything, it simply opens the option to students who have already made the decision to arm themselves for self defense off campus. The only way the solution would result in being extreme is if a permit holder did end up stopping a massacre, in which case we should be thankful, otherwise it has absolutely no visible effect on campus, and the hidden effect of creating a deterrent to motivate criminals to go elsewhere.