This is the definitive place to discuss everything that makes life on & off campus so unique in Central Virginia.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By Liberty Freelance
Registration Days Posts
#256180
I don't support drunkenness in public places! You're not condoning being gay by not outlawing it. Are you condoning divorce by allowing it? Are you condoning permarital sex by not punishing with the machinery of the state?

Why would my credibility be diminishing at Liberty? They're open to opposing ideas, right? I think I'd lose credibility if I wrote people off who disagreed with me. There's no doubt people at Liberty who agree with me.

This discussion is great, though. This is the kind of debate that should be taking place in the pages of the Champion.

Anyway, I'm not going to be around the computer for a while, so I won't be able to respond until later.
User avatar
By Th3rd
Registration Days Posts
#256182
Liberty Freelance wrote:I don't support drunkenness in public places! You're not condoning being gay by not outlawing it. Are you condoning divorce by allowing it? Are you condoning permarital sex by not punishing with the machinery of the state?

Why would my credibility be diminishing at Liberty? They're open to opposing ideas, right? I think I'd lose credibility if I wrote people off who disagreed with me. There's no doubt people at Liberty who agree with me.

This discussion is great, though. This is the kind of debate that should be taking place in the pages of the Champion.

Anyway, I'm not going to be around the computer for a while, so I won't be able to respond until later.
you are right there are people who agree with you at Liberty, and they are very wrong when they agree with you, because no matter what its still a sin... by saying o the state shouldn't do anything about it because its not their call is asking God to do something about it. If we stand by as Christians and do nothing then God will step in and do something, its as simple as that.. That is what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah

Lot the 'christian' of the town stood by while his town went to the sewers in debauchery and homosexuality and perversion. He did nothing so God stepped in and said I will do something and rained fire from heaven and destroyed the town.

The same thing will happen when we as christians decide its not our place to stand up against sin and that we should sit by and let it happen since it is their choice. We become apathetic towards sin and just like Lot, we start outside the town and we end up living in it.....

So yes there are people here who agree with you, but they don't agree with what God has to say, so really who is more important when all is said and done?
By 4everfsu
Registration Days Posts
#256188
I will condone any marriage where is is between a man and a woman, just as God did in Genesis 2:21-25. If you want to call it a marriage between two queers go ahead, if that makes your feel better. That would be like you putting a saddle on a pig and entering it in the Kentucky Derby. It will not make the pig a thoroughbred.
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By Rockthejungle
Registration Days Posts
#256195
4everfsu wrote:I will condone any marriage where is is between a man and a woman, just as God did in Genesis 2:21-25. If you want to call it a marriage between two queers go ahead, if that makes your feel better. That would be like you putting a saddle on a pig and entering it in the Kentucky Derby. It will not make the pig a thoroughbred.
Sorry i just had to do it. :shock:

Image

Everyone's favorite pig, Arnold
By 4everfsu
Registration Days Posts
#256196
Rockthejungle they say a pic is worth a thousand words :D
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By matshark
Registration Days Posts
#256197
4everfsu wrote:I will condone any marriage where is is between a man and a woman, just as God did in Genesis 2:21-25. If you want to call it a marriage between two queers go ahead, if that makes your feel better. That would be like you putting a saddle on a pig and entering it in the Kentucky Derby. It will not make the pig a thoroughbred.
thats it! freelance is responsible for the swine flu!!!!

i had to LOL when you said this is the type of debate that should be taking place on the pages of the Champion.

your positions don't even make sense and we are all drilling them full of holes. nothing you have said is even consistent! if that were to take place on the pages of the Champion it would be the laughingstock of the colege newspaper world. (Currently, the Champion is a pretty prestigious college paper and consistently wins awards for its high journalistic quality and overall news coverage as well as editorial staff, photos, sports, etc...)

PLEASE tell me you aren't going into journalism as a profession. not only would Mrs. Huff fail you, but you are only fit to write for a celebrity rag tabloid. maybe Perez Hilton is looking for another worthless "journalist" begging to be acknowledged as 'relevant' by someone - anyone...

let me give you some advice. go crawl back under whatever primordial sub-journalistic rock you crawled out from under. you will save us a lot of trouble and yourself a lot of embarrassment.
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By matshark
Registration Days Posts
#256201
and here's an article detailing just how "tolerant" and open to a "free exchange of ideas" those other schools are.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518378,00.html
By Ed Dantes
Registration Days Posts
#256204
matshark wrote:and here's an article detailing just how "tolerant" and open to a "free exchange of ideas" those other schools are.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518378,00.html
I'll be the first one to defend LF here (I know, I tried to leave the thread but I couldn't).

Matshark, we've established that other colleges aren't tolerant of ideas. LF acknowledges this. His point is, 'why does the Liberty Champion have to be that way?'

The point I've been trying to say is that the Liberty Champion isn't supposed to be a forum for free-and-open discussion. It's for 1) training communication students in the basics of print-writing, deadlines, and copy-editing and 2) public relations. It is a Liberty-sponsored and funded fishwrap, and thus, they have the right to control what it contains. Besides, newspapers are lousy for free flow of ideas. You can't have an open forum. One person gets to say something. Maybe next week you can print a letter to the editor, but that's it. No newspaper lets you rebut a rebuttal.

Second point: There is no law that precludes LF, or anyone, from printing their own paper, with their own paper, and distributing it -- even on campus. It's been done before. I'm sure it'll be done again. I mulled over doing it in my younger days, but I didn't feel like rocking the boat.
Last edited by Ed Dantes on April 29th, 2009, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Ed Dantes
Registration Days Posts
#256205
Finally, from a Biblical standpoint...

Read what Paul said about eating meat offered to idols (i think it was Paul). He said essentially, he didn't have a problem with it, and so, it wasn't a sin. There was nothing inherently sinful about eating meat offered to idols. HOWEVER, if a someone did have a problem with it, then Paul shouldn't encourage him to do so -- or else they would both be sinning.

His words:
"Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."
Let's make this a contemporary example. I've argued that there is nothing wrong with social drinking. If you don't get drunk, well, a little wine is good for the heart. If I drink (which I don't), I'm okay. However, there are people who feel completely the opposite. They feel that it is sin to touch alcohol. If I try to convince someone to go against their principles, I am wrong. That is sin.

With me so far? Everyone?

Now, kids are dumb and naive. If Liberty sanctions a forum that endorses views such as homosexual marriage, drinking, abortion, et cetera... and manages to convince some dumb, impressionable kid that it's okay to rebel against his values... then Liberty is in the wrong. Liberty is in sin. And keep in mind that our entire goal of a University is to train champions for Christ.

Speaking from personal experience... Getting only one side of the story encouraged me to seek other opinions. I hated Lew Weider's GNED class. So I went out and did research on my own and developed my own ideology, that I felt was consistent with Biblical principles. And if that's not the goal of any institute of higher learning... well, I don't know what is.

Oh, and there was this verse from Paul, also in I Corinthians 8:
"Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak"
But what do I know. I'm just a 27-year-old Old Hag.
By phoenix
Registration Days Posts
#256210
Not that I'm hopeful that the Freelancer will respond (so far my comments about The Economist and anonymity have curiously been ignored), but I decided to do a little research on college newspaper censorship. It was pretty tough -- I had to actually do a Google search for "college newspaper censorship," after all.

1. The Supreme Court refused to hear cases involving campus newspaper censorship back in 2006, without comment or recorded dissent. It rules in a similar case involving high school newspapers that public school officials could censor student newspapers without violating the students' first amendment rights. An appeals court ruled that that decision also applied to student newspapers subsidized by public colleges and universities.

2. The appellate court ruling I referred to in point 1 was related to a case involving students at Governors State University in University Park, Illinois.
The newspaper in 2000 published a number of articles critical of the school's administration, including one about the decision not to renew the teaching contract of the Innovator's adviser.

Patricia Carter, the dean of student affairs, called the company that printed the newspaper and ordered it not to print any copies without prior approval from a school administrator.

The students refused to submit their articles to the administration for review and approval before publication.
(from redOrbit
(by the way - did you see what I did there? I quoted another article, referred back to the original source, and am using it to support an original post of my own. That's how bloggers use cut and paste, as I mentioned in my last post here that you've so far ignored.) The old hags on the board will possibly remember an incident back in the late 80s when students at Liberty didn't submit something to a faculty adviser for review before it was released. I think part of the reason that Liberty controls student media as much as it does is because of past problems when students did what they wanted to do without faculty oversight.

3. You asked what other colleges censor their student papers. Of course, it really doesn't matter to you; the only free campus press you are really concerned about is Liberty's, but I found a few other schools that do it. Obviously, Governors State does (see point 1). Chicago State does as well; in fact, in February of this year, the faculty adviser ordered the presses stopped because he thought there wasn't enough original content, and what content there was was of poor quality. (And of course, the point of a student publication is to educate journalism students, rather than to provide a forum for students to rant against the school.) Personally, I think that it was a stupid decision; students learn from their mistakes, so the paper should have gone to press. But I digress. The Student Press Law Center has some pretty good resources relating to college newspapers and censorship. An interesting case is made regarding the University of Massachusetts, where they actually guarantee space in the paper for all points of view, even those that are totally against everything the university stands for (as you want Liberty to do). Unfortunately, this has created other problems. "How can the press recognize, define, and meet its social responsibilities without at the same time sacrificing its ethics? The page recognizes the pages' lack of professionalism in some cases because of inadequate basic reporting and editing skills on the part of those producing them. These inadequacies make the pages difficult to read and increase the danger of libel suits." (from Censorship Issues in College Newspapers -- see? I did it again ;) ) The same article points out that while many university-owned papers won't experience outright censorship, they will experience the dismissal of their faculty adviser. I like their suggested solution -- an independent student paper. If financial backing isn't available, a blog would be another option.

I'm guessing that's what you're trying to do with the Freelance. I still have an issue with the anonymity (which I look forward to you addressing), and the original content vs. cut and paste stuff. There still seems to be a combative attitude (the ski slope issue stands out in my mind as an example of the blog expressing outrage without having all the facts about something), and there is certainly a lack of time spent on news that shows the school in a positive light (compare the time spent on the Unlikely Disciple vs. the time spent on Liberty students' civic involvement, or Liberty athletics. Rather than taking some of the suggestions we've made here seriously, you're spending an awful lot of time here arguing about how you're right and we all just don't understand you. You are as rigid and set in your ways as any FlameFans poster; the only difference is that most of us know we are.

I refuse to comment on the other stuff that's taken this thread slightly off topic, except to say that government has no business getting involved in marriage at all. Marriage is a religious ceremony, not a civic one. I don't even like having to be licensed to perform marriages, or having to get a marriage license to be "officially" married. I don't care who the government wants to recognize as being 'civilly united' or whatever they want to call it, but marriage is a straight up church issue. Government involvement in it is a violation of the separation of church and state that so many people on the left seem to love so much.
{EDIT TO ADD}
And Liberty sophomore Michael Hayden will try to break the record in it. He's going to try to run the most miles in 24 hours. The run will take place in the LaHaye Student Union. I hope no one walks by and taps the stop button, sending Mr. Hayden toppling over the railing above the basketball courts.
The emphasized portion should give you a pretty good indication of why people won't (or don't) take The Liberty Freelance seriously.
By Libertine
Registration Days Posts
#256219
Ed's and Phoenix's last two posts are the definitive answers to this question. If you're genuinely interested in debate, LF, I suggest you move onto a new topic. There are plenty more of those on FlameFans as it is.
By Liberty Freelance
Registration Days Posts
#256223
Phoenix,

I'm trying to respond. It's tough when it's me (and now Ed) against everyone else. I have a lot of responses to make.

I struggled through your sarcasm-laced post to get to some of the actual issues. Again, I'm not arguing about what the law is. I know Liberty can legally censor it's paper. So that issue should be over. Also, I've already addressed your example about poor reporting. That's what the faculty's there for. They should help fact checking, editing, etc. They shouldn't censor. And the reason I asked which schools censor their papers is because a lot of people have raised the point that a lot of other schools do so. So I was just wondering which ones do.

And if anyone remembers how this debate (debacle?) began, censoring the Champion was simply an example of how Liberty could allow more points of view to prevail on campus in many ways.

As to anonymity, there's nothing to really address. You disagree with the Economist. We don't. What do you want me to respond? We think ideas are more important than who's writing them. You don't. So don't read our blog if you don't want. There's nothing really nothing else to it.

In sum, though, you're pretty tough on the Freelance, which is fine. We are happy to take criticism and try to make improvements. If you have any other suggestions let us know. But you don't seem to be so hard on this message board. The level of discussion on here has been pretty disappointing. Very few people even try to understand other points of view. The first reaction to my pretty conventional ideas is to oppose first me personally, and secondarily some of what I write. (E.g., I've been accused of being here to just start trouble. Someone said I don't want the school to improve. I just want to cause problems along with a few other unnamed people who apparently show up here every three years or so. What is that? Is that an argument? It's just verbal throat clearing. I can't really defend myself against those charges. No serious person throws around baseless and pointless accusations like that. It's just dismissive and lazy.) So for all your pungent criticisms of the Freelance, I'm surprised you've been so easy on your colleagues who on this thread alone have given a textbook's worth of examples of logical fallacies.
By phoenix
Registration Days Posts
#256226
In sum, though, you're pretty tough on the Freelance, which is fine. We are happy to take criticism and try to make improvements. If you have any other suggestions let us know. But you don't seem to be so hard on this message board. The level of discussion on here has been pretty disappointing. Very few people even try to understand other points of view. The first reaction to my pretty conventional ideas is to oppose first me personally, and secondarily some of what I write. (E.g., I've been accused of being here to just start trouble. Someone said I don't want the school to improve. I just want to cause problems along with a few other unnamed people who apparently show up here every three years or so. What is that? Is that an argument? It's just verbal throat clearing. I can't really defend myself against those charges. No serious person throws around baseless and pointless accusations like that. It's just dismissive and lazy.) So for all your pungent criticisms of the Freelance, I'm surprised you've been so easy on your colleagues who on this thread alone have given a textbook's worth of examples of logical fallacies.
First, no sarcasm intended. The reason that I'm tougher on you than on this message board is that the message board serves a different purpose. This board works a lot like a bar -- a group of guys get together and talk. It's a far more casual forum than a blog, especially a blog that is attempting to be an alternative to a college newspaper. It serves it's purpose; it's purpose is just different from your stated purpose. If I'm tough on the Freelance, maybe it has something to do with the whole "iron sharpening iron" thing. I'd like to see the blog become an outlet for people who, for whatever reason, don't have a voice in the Champion. But if you're going to be better than the Champion, you need to make sure you do what you accuse them of not doing.

And the "every three years" argument is unfortunately true. It seems to be a cycle -- every so often, someone decides to try to buck the system, try to "give the students a voice," and it lasts a little while and then nobody ever hears from them again. The voice is gone, and we're left wondering what they were in it for to begin with. We're left with people who have caused a little bit of trouble at others' expense, and are gone when it comes time to reap what they've sown. Those of us who have been around for a while have, quite frankly, gotten tired of it. So we dismiss the latest thing as just that - the latest thing, and figure it will be gone before too long.

Like I said, I think that what you're doing can be helpful to everyone. I'd really like to see you break the cycle, and become something useful to students, faculty, and alumni of Liberty University. But given what I've seen at the Freelance so far, I'm not sure it will happen.
By Liberty Freelance
Registration Days Posts
#256228
Ed,

I don't really see how Liberty would be endorsing anything. They would have a student-run newspaper with arguments on all sides of issues. They wouldn't be endorsing anything other than a free press. If a student is persuaded one way or another, how is Liberty in the wrong? You assume that by a student "rebelling against his or her" values, Liberty would somehow be at fault, or the student would be at fault--for what you consider "rebelling against values" is to someone else intellectual maturity. No one's at fault if someone arrives at their own position on controversial issues. By allowing freedom of speech in the paper, the school could not possibly be held accountable to anyone for a student deciding abortion is right or wrong. That student will run into other ideas at some point in his or her life. You're not giving the students enough credit. They're independent adults who make their own decisions. They're responsible for whatever they decide to believe. They should just have as much information before them as possible. That's a major part of education. And besides, as I pointed out, I don't think there are clear answers on those issues. So they should be up for debate and discussion.

Many people here seem to think there are clear answers. That's fine. But there needs to be a framework--a rule of law--that allows dissent from the conventional wisdom. It's dangerous for a few people who think they've figured everything out to impose their conclusions on everyone else. The minority points of view should have a voice.

With everything that Liberty does, though, there's no way someone (at least someone outside of PCC, BJU, and the like) is going to think they actually endorse gay marriage or abortion. That's not really a serious defense for allowing freedom of speech in the campus paper.
By Ed Dantes
Registration Days Posts
#256233
Whatever.
User avatar
By matshark
Registration Days Posts
#256236
Ed Dantes wrote:Whatever.
What he said.
User avatar
By flames1971
Registration Days Posts
#256237
matshark wrote:
Ed Dantes wrote:Whatever.
What he said.
:exactly
By phoenix
Registration Days Posts
#256238
Of course, I'm still having trouble finding a campus newspaper relevant to anything students will be doing after they graduate. Within three or four years, so many newspapers will have gone under that I'm wondering where j-school grads will be working, unless they start their own blogs. And trust me, there ain't much money in that.

(I just wish my bandwidth problems were caused by throngs of people wanting to read my old content.)
User avatar
By matshark
Registration Days Posts
#256240
phoenix wrote:Of course, I'm still having trouble finding a campus newspaper relevant to anything students will be doing after they graduate. Within three or four years, so many newspapers will have gone under that I'm wondering where j-school grads will be working, unless they start their own blogs. And trust me, there ain't much money in that.

(I just wish my bandwidth problems were caused by throngs of people wanting to read my old content.)
Yeah, journalism (print) is a dying breed. Better to work for an online news source (i.e. Fox News, etc...) where they compile and distribute news rather than merely print it. Less overhead = more pay + more demand from increased accessibility

I got my journalism degree cause it was easy and knew while i was working on it that i didn't want to do it for a living. There's money to be made from writing, just not for a newspaper
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