[A.G.]

Freaking crybabies--and I'm talking about LCA. What they are accused of is EXACTLY what they do--try to raid the publics. Keep them the heck out of VHSL and let them play their marshmallow opponents.

[SuperJon]

I was gonna say that but didn't feel like taking the heat for it. Thank you.

[A.G.]

I say it gladly.

[Sly Fox]

The area where I side on LCA in this discussion is the blackballing. Thats bush to refuse to schedule a school just because they want to play someone you hate. That's 3rd grade mentality. If you don't want to play a school then that is your business (even though tax dollars are involved and there has to be some form of accountability). But these types of you can't play him or I'll take my ball home is lame in every context.

That said, I don't blame them for being bitter about recruiting.

[A.G.]

I agree with that one, Sly. It is totally wrong to try to blacklist the schools willing to participate with LCA. Of course, William Campbell and Gretna could probably beat most of the AA schools in the area.

[Libertine]

I don't have a problem with privates recruiting. Typically, their enrollment's are much smaller and it costs money to go there. They can't pull athletes from the general population like the publics can. On top of that, there's nothing that says they can't do it. The funny thing to me is that the VHSL's cry foul because they can't recruit and LCA does, but at the same time, they're opposed to LCA joining the VHSL which would force LCA to play by their rules.

[A.G.]

There is also the whole "scholarship" issue. I know for a FACT that some of the recruited don't have the finances to pay tuition there. Let the privates be private and the VHSL be public.

[TallyW]

I can appreciate the concern over the recruiting but I do have a question about it.

According to the story it seems that the coaches who have a problem with LCA's recruiting say that they have been accused of recruiting at the Middle School level. Then the argument is that the other schools can't recruit because of losing a year of eligability. Wouldn't it be logical to think that everyone is able (and does) recruit at the middle school level? I know around here (Hampton Roads/Va Beach) that kids make the move pretty regularly depending on where their feeder school is. I know personally kids who have gone from one district to another just before 9th grade so they can play for a much better team. It seems to me that it's done to some level anyway for the best players.

Just wondered if there is clarification I need on this one...

[Brokeback Flamer]

I can appreciate the concern over the recruiting but I do have a question about it.

According to the story it seems that the coaches who have a problem with LCA's recruiting say that they have been accused of recruiting at the Middle School level. Then the argument is that the other schools can't recruit because of losing a year of eligability. Wouldn't it be logical to think that everyone is able (and does) recruit at the middle school level? I know around here (Hampton Roads/Va Beach) that kids make the move pretty regularly depending on where their feeder school is. I know personally kids who have gone from one district to another just before 9th grade so they can play for a much better team. It seems to me that it's done to some level anyway for the best players.

Just wondered if there is clarification I need on this one...

Obviously, this is a much more rural area, and a little more closely knit. There are a few MS athletes who try to shimmy between say Heritage and Glass, but not so much when you look at someone from Gretna going to say Chatham. To sum up the coaches complaints against LCA and reasons why they won't/don't want to schedule them:
1. Transfer Rule. If a player leaves Brookville after a year and goes to JF, they have to sit out a year before playing for them. If player transfers from Amherst to LCA, they can play the next day.
2. Eligibility. This is a two pronged complaint. First, SEVERAL, players whose academics were less then stellar (one transfered in with a .9 gpa) at local public schools suddenly became eligible to play at LCA. Also, the extra year of eligibility can conceivably give an athete 6 years or more to compete at the high school level. They can play varsity as an 8th (even 7th) grader and can still play until they reach a certain age limit. (I believe 18, but not sure)
3. FB Playoffs. Why schedule LCA in football when it will only hurt your ability to get into the VHSL playoffs?

As for LCA coming into the VHSL, that is going to be stretch for a long time. The majority of other states that allow Private and Public schools to compete under their state sanctioning body have them play by the same rules. This would mean that LCA could not recruit, athletes who transfer would have to sit out a year, academic policies would have to be transparent and , this is the big one, the "free" college education scholarship would have to be done away with (at least if you wanna play athletics) I am not sure LCA is ready to make that commitment, and I am not sure there is enough trust to give them the opportunity to do so AFTER they are allowed in the VHSL. LCA is going to have to do those things ont heir own most liketly as a sign of good faith.

[bigsmooth]

agreed with AG. stay private. im tired of this liberty counsel trying to flex their muscle. the VHSL is for public schools. LCA is a private school. when the VHSL changes their rules, then im sure LCA will be at the doorstep with an application. so what if many of the other states allow private schools to play in the public school league. virginia is obviously different.

[4everfsu]

Yes, Virginia is for lovers! Do they still have that motto?

[givemethemic]

Things are starting to look better for LCA, there are more A.D's and coaches that are willing to schedule LCA now...Expect to see some Public schools in the near future

[thesportscritic]

Things are starting to look better for LCA, there are more A.D's and coaches that are willing to schedule LCA now...Expect to see some Public schools in the near future

Near future as in next season (07-08 season)?

[cws1007]

I don't have time to read through the tons of individual posts here, but for what it's worth here are my two cents:

I was an athletic director for a private high school in Virginia for seven years. In that time, I developed many relationships with athletic directors, coaches and administration from both private and public institutions as well as referees and the VHSL. I also founded a smaller athletic conference for private schools in Virginia. (side note: I was even asked to apply for the LCA director position at one point – I declined due to the politics which occur – case in point)

When I first took this position, I found the school had never participated with other public schools and few schools outside of their small private conference. I took the challenge of broadening this base of opponents. First, I developed scheduling with other private conferences. I then co-founded a private school athletic conference for Virginia. Then began the development toward participation with public schools. The first step being a registered member of the VHSL.

This took some time, but by the end of my tenure, we were competing with public schools as well as private (LCA being included) in several sports.

So, I have a direct insight into this issue.

1. The VHSL is a good organization. The rules are defined. Meet them and you are a member. You are then eligible to participate against public schools. As in all conferences and organizations I know of, you are first encouraged to participate within your own body first, then seek outside if needed. Therefore, if I’m a member of the VHSL, I’m looking to other VHSL schools to play before scheduling an LCA. (Common sense)

2. LCA just needs to learn to play by the rules. Call off the legal dogs and just make the choices. Join the VHSL if you must play private schools – or – play as a private school and get what contests you can. Live with it and move on. Education should be the priority and we all need to remember that athletics is an extra curricular activity. No one hears them fighting in the courts because the chess club was not allowed to participate.

3. This is a relationship problem – I developed great relationships with all those in the public and private sector. Those who were part of the VHSL welcomed my questions and tried to work with me to schedule. Sure, they preferred when we did not defeat their teams or athletes, but guess what, my students had friends in those schools and we all had a good time. What I see is a continuation of the repercussions from Jerry Falwell and the approach taken, past and present.

4. This is not a legal issue – WOW, how many times has anything associated with LU, LCA or other “liberty” organizations not gone in their favor and you see them bring out the lawyers and try to push people around. When will they learn that lawyers do not solve problems, they only restrict areas by creating more laws. I never had a big law firm on my side. I just treated everyone else with respect, smiled and shook their hand. They appreciated that approach and reciprocated in a positive manner.

5. LCA is a private school – I get a little confused on this front. LCA was founded to give an option from public education. However, now they are taking legal action to participate with the public institutions? I’m sure there are students who have been excluded from attending LCA (as most Christian based schools). I don’t feel because we are Christians we deserve to have it both ways. This is the very reason I founded a separate conference for private schools. Since I worked for a private school, I knew that playing public institutions was only in addition to our schedules. The VHSL had their districts aligned and I was not trying to change those. I also found that many of the private conferences were just that – private and sometimes hard to be accepted into for many various reasons. Therefore, I began a conference which was open for all private schools. Denominations, school size, history, etc. did not affect your application. I was not trying to fight my way into a conferences where my school did not fit, but I was now offering those schools who didn’t have a conference (whether it be for the entire school or a particular sport) to have somewhere to participate and the chance at a end of season tournament. This conference is now entering its 11th year. I moved in 2001 and it has continued to grow.


So, if you are just complaining about a boycott – grow up! There is a lot more to it than:

Public school - “I’m not gonna play with you.”
LCA - “you have to.”
Public school - “no I don’t either.”
LCA - “ I’m gonna tell the teacher.”
Public school - “go ahead.”
LCA (leaves and then returns) - “this is my daddy, he’s gonna make you play.”

[LUconn]

You make some pretty good points, but it was my understanding that the ambulance chasers were called in because the boycott itself was illegal. LCA was denied acceptance into VHSL and I don't think they were happy about it and probably intend to challenge that eventually, but I don't think they did anything about it yet. When they were led to believe that there was an organized movement not to play them for whatever reason is when the hounds were released. So far, it looks as though there was no real boycott so it appears as a gross overeaction.

But as it stands right now, they're not trying to force their way into a league. They were trying to force schools not to influence other schools to avoid us. That's how I understood the whole situation anyway.

[A.G.]

cws--man, what a great #2 post. Well said!

[El Scorcho]

2. LCA just needs to learn to play by the rules. Call off the legal dogs and just make the choices. Join the VHSL if you must play private schools – or – play as a private school and get what contests you can. Live with it and move on.

That sounds like a defeatist attitude to me. It's easy to tuck your tail and run, but sometimes it's worth it to fight.

3. This is a relationship problem –What I see is a continuation of the repercussions from Jerry Falwell and the approach taken, past and present.

I think that's what everyone sees, and why some say it isn't fair or even legal.

4. This is not a legal issue – WOW, how many times has anything associated with LU, LCA or other “liberty” organizations not gone in their favor and you see them bring out the lawyers and try to push people around. When will they learn that lawyers do not solve problems, they only restrict areas by creating more laws. I never had a big law firm on my side. I just treated everyone else with respect, smiled and shook their hand. They appreciated that approach and reciprocated in a positive manner.

The difference is that you started with a clean slate. When dealing with LU, LCA or TRBC people are automatically biased, so a smile and a handshake won't always work. I'm not saying that's not our fault, but that's how it is.

5. LCA is a private school – I get a little confused on this front. LCA was founded to give an option from public education. However, now they are taking legal action to participate with the public institutions?

Not with. Against. They want to participate AGAINST public institutions. There is a difference. One says "We need you." and the other says "We want to show you that our alternative is good."

And finally...

I don't have time to read through the tons of individual posts here...

In that case, no one here should take the time to read your post.

[TallyW]

I'm with El Scorcho on this one. To me our new poster friend seems like a pacifist. The days are gone when a smile and handshake will do. LCA is not a faceless organization... there are people involved who feel disinfranchised by the status quo. We are a nation of the law and by the law is how we ensure we are each protected and not discriminated against. LCA, LU, TRBC and any other alphabet organization has the right to pursue the actions necessary to ensure a level 'playing field'. Once a case is heard it is over. To say we should ignore it and let individuals who have problems with LCA infringe on their rights is ludacris.

Congratulations for pumping yourself up as being too good to submit an application, for getting along with people and for 'founding' an organization. None of that means that LCA or it's affiliates should take your approach toward things. There are many reasons that LCA and the rest of the TRBC family sit atop a 4,000 acre mountain and many of those reasons came after some people stood up and refused to be pushed around.

Sometimes Jerry's group wins... sometimes they lose... but it doesn't mean they should shut up and take it.

[LUconn]

you guys are mean.

[bigsmooth]

Great post by CWS! Until LCA plays by the VHSL'S guidelines, they will not be allowed in...end of story.

[LUconn]

I think everybody is missing the point. They're suing about an illegal boycott! Not VHSL admission! Am I wrong on that?

[TallyW]

You're right on that. I hope I didn't lead anyone to believe otherwise. I was mainly speaking to the fact that if LCA's lawyers determine it's necessary to pursue it... they should.

[bigsmooth]

it is two sided. they DO want to join the VHSL, and this bycott was the start of the lawsuit.

[Brokeback Flamer]

Outside of any pics of PA I think this is my favorite thread!
EL SCORCH, you might wanna double check your arguments against CSW. You say that his #2 point sounds defeatist to you, yet you sort of sound defeatist describing his point #4.
TALLY - A nation of laws? So you should be ok then with abortion on demand, eminent domain changes, pornography protection, gay marriage ban. Our laws are very "fluid" and it seems like for YEARS the good reverend always said that when liberals don't get thier way, they head to the courts, and they should win the "hearts and minds" instead. NoW when LU has a law they don't like, in either a hypocritical move or a fight fire with fire move depending on your perspective, what do they do? Not try to win the hearts and minds of the people, but head to the courts. Can this be seen as wanting to have it both ways? Could this be a little insight to why there is some resistence out there?
You make a GREAT point that it should be a level playing field. You are right, it isn't. As has been discussed before, when an athlete at a public school in ineligible (much like my typing) and they transfer to LCA and are "miraculously" academically eligible, that would be an un-even playing field. When a player transfers from Brookville to Heritage and has to sit out a year before they are eligible(thus losing a year of eligibility) but can transfer to LCA, play right away and possible GAIN a year of eligibility, that would be an un-even playing field. When a player at Rustburg can compete in 4 years of varsity competition, but an LCA student can theoretcically participate in 6 or 7 years of varsity competition, that would be an un-even playing field.
Also, you can not underestimate the power of a handshake and a smile. You have to SELL the "Academy" to those who are predisposed against it. By sicking the "We Don't Have Enough To Do Lawyer Brigade" on them, you only reinforce the stereo type. THE LIBERTY COUNCIL (Our whatever the thing is called) does not put a "personal" face to Jerry's Kingdom, it does the exact opposite. Meeting AD to AD, Coach to Coach, THAT puts a face with the organization and is by far and away the best way to work out the differences.
Finally, what boycott?? A coach/AD says they are not going to play LCA, so they don't. They convince some of their friends to do the same, some don't. What is wrong with this? Instead of lawyers, perhaps we should be out their, much like our other long winded poster, and convincing those teams TO play us. The only conspiracy out their is someone/someplace said we aren't playing LCA and here is why. And some people thought that was a good idea. How is this illegal?

[TallyW]

Brokeback- Why is it wrong? In economics it's called collusion. You cannot get together with other entities and shut out competition. Especially in the case of public schools (STATE) colluding not to play private schools. The collusion of atheletic directors who instruct their coaches not to play a private school effectively means that the government (schools) is setting itself up against private schools. Effectively this becomes a state action against it's own people. Now, the schools independantly can choose not to put LCA on the schedule... that's their choice... but LCA was concerned that this was not independant schools making a decision but rather a more pervasive problem.

As for Jerry's remarks you did a good job twisting up his words and the context to which they were used. Dr. Falwell mentions the liberals going to the courts and not the minds of the people in matters of state and national laws (Gay Marriage would be most sensitive to you). Since 2004 there have been 11 states who have brought the choice before the people in a public vote and in EVERY STATE it's been blown to pieces. The general public does not want this to happen. Because liberals know there is no way to convince Americans to support their actions, lawsuits and some liberal judges are involved. In most cases instead of liberals having to convince an entire state of their position, they just need one friendly man or woman to agree with them.

That being said... this has NOTHING to do with that. You've taken Dr. Falwell's words and misapplied them. Nice try.


You also did a halfway job of trying to strawman my point about smile and a shake. It's beyond obvious that AD's should talk to AD's and coaches with coaches (how do you think schedules are made) so I'm not talking about that and you know it. The issue is that if there is collusion going on, you can talk all you want and wrap your smile around your head... you won't get anywhere.... what moves people is consequence for their wrong. There is nothing wrong with that.

Thanks for trying to twist the argument. Not this time.