[JLFJR]

VIW, I agree with most of what you say. I don't want us to ever fall into the Ivy League model (I know not only Ivy Leagues do this and I know not all ILs practice it but allow me to call it IL model for now) of sticking a thousand or more kids in a class with a grad assistant teaching it while the PHD is off in Madagascar studying the mating habits of the African fruit fly or something. There are certain courses that can be taught in larger groups and some that cannot. I think our math emporium and the College of General Studies will correct some of this. By moving students through the CGS first, won't students be able to advance to smaller classes each year instead of the other way around? My son prefers the smaller classes as well. In fact, he finds online courses to be the most rigorous of all courses at LU but I am getting off the subject.

I think Dr. Rist and Dr. Godwin were working on a new paradigm a few years ago and I think that new paradigm did call for some larger class sizes. But, that is not what I am seeing from this new initiative. I will keep a close eye on it as we move forward because my concerns are the same as yours. I agree we need to improve our student/faculty ratio and that cannot be done by moving to larger and larger class sizes. Our construction department is getting requests from the Provost's Office for 20 or 30 smaller new classrooms right now.

[LBC78]

...most universities have unsustainable business models and can only survive with state subsidies or by spending down their endowments every year. The problem is the states are running out of money. The schools that survive will be the ones that have adapted themselves to meet the needs of their students, including adults who cannot uproot their families and spend four years in a dorm.

I think that this is what some do not take into consideration, and in conversations with several faculty members, I have reminded them of this fact. I believe that we are only seeing the beginning of the changes that could potentially occur do to our economy, and I have no doubt that online education will be part of the plan for affordable higher ed in the future. I wonder if a typical academic would see this trend or would be willing to push the envelope in embracing it. That is a credit to our administration and it is important to communicate this vision- to supporters, alumni, and faculty (I don't think students care so much about vision).

I also appreciate your openness to hearing complaints directly; as some have mentioned previously, like it or not, there is a very real concern about negative responses, not from you, but from others. I do think Philonous has a point about the academic growth of Liberty. Just as important as fielding that FBS football team is, continued broadening of academic prowess is equally... even more important. I doubt if the brightest and best Christian youth choose LU if they get accepted at UVa or Brown, but I do think that there could be a day when they would. FWIW- I think the same about our sports programs.

Philonous- even though JLFJR told me to "get a grip" earlier, this is an important discussion and it has the eyes of more than one influential person. If things get too heated and emotional, Mr. Fox could lock this for the good of all.

[Purple Haize]

Philonous - I first must ask if your last name is Monk, and if so could have an autorgraphed copy of some of your albums?
While some of your points may have some validity, I must say it was it shows poor cricket to be so condescending to the "mysterious" JLFJR and the others on this board. There are actually some people here who have PhD's.
What is obvious is that your idea/vision is different from the Chancellor's vision. Is that bad? not at all. You could even teach at Liberty and try to find a research/teaching balance. It would be more difficult here than at a State School, but that is something known coming in. I see Liberty pursuing a "practical application" model of higher education. At least when I was there our Departments #1 priority was to provide the information our students needed to get jobs when they graduate. The more "prestigous" jobs our graduates obtained, the better our program/school looks both on and off campus. It was nice in conversing with professionals in the field and higher ed and here how much better prepared our students were then those from other more "prestige" schools. That is simply b/c in Research driven institutions, the Faculty do research to increase their OWN understanding of topics. The more "Prestigous" awards the faculty receive the better that school/scholar/program looks Granted, that is a broad generalization, but it cuts to the point.

Welcome to the board but save your condescention for those who really deserve it: Like HMO!!!!

[Sly Fox]

As long as the discussion remains respectful I am predisposed to encouraging dialogue and not squashing it. It is the openness of this thread that I think is providing the greatest benefit.

[JLFJR]

LBC78, I did tell you to get a grip, didn't I? Sorry about that. I think Philonous did help the discussion by pointing out that academic excellence does not mean the same thing to all of us. My definition is nowhere near his. And LBC78, you are right that the world economy is changing. The old elite schools could afford to neglect what was in the best interests of the students in the past because they were so heavily subsidized and had no competition. They really had no reason to treat students well because the students had no choice but to attend certain schools if they wanted certain jobs. Now, studies are revealing that graduates of elite universities are not earning more on average than their peers from no name colleges (or something along those lines -- I'll try to dig it out). In any event, these elite schools are being forced to compete for students for the first time in many generations and they don't like it. They also took big hits in their endowment investments in 2008 and states are cutting funding to higher education (except Virginia). Students are flocking to schools that treat them like customers, schools that cater to their needs spiritually, academically and physically. That is why Liberty's growth has skyrocketed in recent years-because we meet all these needs. I can't tell you how many times I have heard resident and online students repeat that their Liberty professors really care about them and that is why they love Liberty. When I personally answer messages from students, I often get back a big thank you followed by "the chancellor at my other college would never talk to a student". I just don't understand that mentality. We need to always remember who we are and why students love Liberty. For us to achieve academically, we may first have to change the definition of academic excellence. We have a tradition of doing things differently. We have already redefined Christian higher education. Before Liberty, Christian education meant a small college atmosphere with oppressive rules, very limited funding and facilities and athletics. Today, it means a burgeoning online program, 21 Division I NCAA teams, incredible student life opportunities, excellent and constantly improving facilities, AA credit rating from Standard & Poors, and the largest private four-year non-profit university in the nation. Now, we constantly receive requests from Christian college presidents who used to look down their noses at schools like Liberty asking if they can come tour the campus and if we will share with them how we did this or that. God is responsible for all of Liberty's success but we have to be open to innovation and we have to keep our priorites in line so that we do not get in the way of what God is miraculously doing here.

Aren't you guys glad I don't get sick very often? This is ridiculous.

[JLFJR]

I found it. Here it is.

Do Highly Selective Colleges Increase Students’ Long-Term Earnings?
March 2, 2011, 2:42 pm
Two researchers have updated a groundbreaking study that found that attending a highly selective college did not make much difference in a student’s average earnings after college. The new study—by Stacy Dale, a senior researcher with Mathematica Policy Research, and Alan B. Krueger, a professor of economics and public policy at Princeton University—looks at the group of people in the original study over a longer period of time and also considers a second, more recent cohort. The results? The same finding: no appreciable financial payoff for attending the most-selective colleges. For example, the average SAT score at the most-selective college that rejected a student was actually a better predictor of long-term earnings than the average score at the college that the student ultimately attended.

[Hold My Own]

Harvard: An academic challenge, a valued credential

As 1 of Harvard’s 13 schools, the Extension School maintains the University’s high academic standards. You study with faculty from Harvard and area universities and with seasoned professionals, gaining specialized knowledge. At graduation, you receive a Harvard University diploma.

Source: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/progra ... itive.jspv

I'm not trying to say we ARE at this level....but does this not describe the direction we are trying to go? This clearly echo's what JLFJR has been saying throughout this thread.

[Purple Haize]

Aren't you guys glad I don't get sick Championship Week doesn't happen very often? This is ridiculous.

FIFY

Next to buying a house, a college degree is the most expensive "purchase" a person will make. With a house, you hope to have a roof over your head, plus whatever amenities you want. When you "Purchase" a college degree, you would like to have a job at the end of it. Or at least that was my philosophy.

[ALUmnus]

Or at least that was my philosophy.

And now the thread has come full circle. Thanks for closing the loop, Haizy.

[Philonous]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to offend anybody except the Chancellor with my post. So, please forgive me for that. And I didn't mean to offend the Chancellor just for offense's sake; rather, I meant the offense to be the sort that stings at first, but awakens one from his dogmatic slumbers later.

[blwall1416]

...sticking a thousand or more kids in a class with a grad assistant teaching it while the PHD is off in Madagascar studying the mating habits of the African fruit fly or something.

This is perhaps one of the greatest quotes on FF........ever. By the way, you now owe me a new monitor & a cup of coffee.

[TDDance234]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to offend anybody except the Chancellor with my post. So, please forgive me for that. And I didn't mean to offend the Chancellor just for offense's sake; rather, I meant the offense to be the sort that stings at first, but awakens one from his dogmatic slumbers later.

You meant to offend the chancellor of a university by prodding him on an internet message board? Seriously?

[Philonous]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to offend anybody except the Chancellor with my post. So, please forgive me for that. And I didn't mean to offend the Chancellor just for offense's sake; rather, I meant the offense to be the sort that stings at first, but awakens one from his dogmatic slumbers later.

You meant to offend the chancellor of a university by prodding him on an internet message board? Seriously?

Seems like this is a good place to get in touch with him. So: Yeah!

[jcmanson]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to offend anybody except the Chancellor with my post. So, please forgive me for that. And I didn't mean to offend the Chancellor just for offense's sake; rather, I meant the offense to be the sort that stings at first, but awakens one from his dogmatic slumbers later.

You meant to offend the chancellor of a university by prodding him on an internet message board? Seriously?

Seems like this is a good place to get in touch with him. So: Yeah!

Why hide in the shadows? Why not call him? E-mail him?

[SuperJon]

Everyone who knows him will tell you he is very approachable. He has responded to every e-mail I've ever sent him. He's always acknowledged me when he's seen me. That's the way he is. Instead of doing it anonymously, grow a pair and confront him with your real name.

[BJWilliams]

All you do by hiding behind an anonymous name is making yourself look like an even bigger condescending jerk

[Liberty Rules]

I've had the incredible privilege of attending many different colleges, both Christian and secular, public and private due to life's twists and turns (I promise it wasn't my grades).

The best colleges were without question those whom were teaching institutions because you actually had time to get to know the professors as people (even the liberals).

Liberty is not about scholarship first, however important that is. Liberty is about people first, beginning with our students.

Professors need to be in their classrooms and in their offices, like staffers are, to meet the needs of Liberty's Joshua Generation. Liberty is a calling, not a job. If you want to write books, however noble that is, do it on your own time after the needs of real flesh and blood, young people who are struggling to get through a secular world, are met.

Thank God we have a Chancellor and institution that when changes do come, worked hard to ensure that no one was fired and had food to feed their family. How many other institutions would do that....anyone..Bueller...anyone?

[jcmanson]

All you do by hiding behind an anonymous name is making yourself look like an even bigger condescending jerk

The Beej has spoken

[AZjonz]

So...thread of the year?

[TDDance234]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean to offend anybody except the Chancellor with my post. So, please forgive me for that. And I didn't mean to offend the Chancellor just for offense's sake; rather, I meant the offense to be the sort that stings at first, but awakens one from his dogmatic slumbers later.

You meant to offend the chancellor of a university by prodding him on an internet message board? Seriously?

Seems like this is a good place to get in touch with him. So: Yeah!

I love the internet tough guy routine but this isn't the place to air personal grievances.

If you have a personal issue you need to discuss, there is a private message option. Or even better, I'm sure Chancellor Falwell's office isn't hard to find.

[AZjonz]

^^^TDDance234

Agree on some of this – If the condescending attitude could have been carved out of the post, the criticisms were legitimate and added to the discussion.

I will say that I like the Chancellor’s response of we need to move forward and create a new Education model because what we have is not working. And if this education bubble pops, a lot of these taxpayer subsidized colleges/universities are in BIG trouble. The Chancellor’s thinking is correct on this – hopefully the execution of this plan will bear that out.

[JLFJR]

AZ Jonz, you nailed it. When we were working with the Wall Street folks on our credit rating, I kept hearing over and over from the bankers that they had not seen a new major university credit in the market since . . . Then, none of them could remember any. They all talked about how much fun it was to work on a new university credit because they are so rare. The point is we are a young school in an old industry and we have a golden opportunity not to make the same mistakes that all the other universities have made and are still making. After we issued our bonds, an investment advisor from an Ivy League School was literally waiting for us upstairs asking us to please give him a chance to build the first new American university endowment in decades from the ground up. He was hired to repair some of the older endowments. You wouldn't believe the horror stories we heard about endowments at major American universities-- problems with those endowments that go beyond loss in market value -- how they are illiquid with money tied up in private equity (that means they own small shares of non-public companies). Anyhow, my point is that it is not only their endowments that are in trouble. These schools are run much like our federal government. Over-spending is chronic. Management decisions are made based on what is good for the faculty, staff and administration, not the student. NOT ONE OF THE EXPERTS WE MET COULD THINK OF ANOTHER MAJOR NON-PROFIT UNIVERSITY IN THE NATION THAT COVERS ALL OF ITS EXPENSES FROM TUITION, ROOM AND BOARD BESIDES LIBERTY. WHEN THEY REALIZED THAT EVEN OUR RESIDENT PROGRAM CAN MAKE THAT CLAIM WITHOUT HELP FROM ONLINE, THEY WERE ASTOUNDED AND THEY STOPPED SNICKERING AT THE AA RATING WE WERE REQUESTING. I think this guy, Philonious's, view of academic excellence is the model that has existed since the industrial revolution in America and Britian. That is when universities gained access to almost unlimited funding and became fat and lazy. I think a new model is emerging and online education will be a big part of that new model. Liberty is in a better position than most to embrace this change because we are young. It is exciting to be part of what is happening at Liberty! We are on truly on the cutting edge!

[JDUB]

Instead of doing it anonymously, grow a pair and confront him with your real name.

[AZjonz]

Good deal Chancellor. It’s very interesting to hear about the financial analysis of Liberty. The thing is, the math doesn’t lie – hard choices are going to have to be made by these institutions. Liberty is being proactive; I feel bad for the institutions are who deeply entrenched in their own created financial mess – well sort of

OT, my family and I leave tomorrow from Tucson, AZ for a new job in Richmond. We are excited about being active Alumni and attending Liberty functions. Maybe I’ll get a chance to meet some folks on this board.

[jcmanson]

I recommend JLFJR being home sick more often