If you want to talk ASUN smack or ramble ad nauseum about your favorite pro or major college teams, this is the place to let it rip.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By stokesjokes
Posts
#612051
There’s no real argument for Bird or Magic being better at this point.

Wilt never did anything from a team-success standpoint with his crazy stats.

We’re left with Jordan, Russel, and Kareem

But, like Ballcoach, you’re throwing out outdated ideas with no support- LeBron James has been first team all defense 5x. He’s top 10 in the league in defensive win shares at 35 years old.
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By Jonathan Carone
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#612054
Saying LeBron can’t play defense is the wrong argument against him.

When he wants to play defense, he’s one of the best in the league by far.

The problem is he chooses not to play defense for much of the year now. As he’s gotten older, his way of load management is to put less energy out on defense during the regular season. When it matters, he locks in and shuts down whoever he’s guarding.

He can play defense. He just doesn’t.
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By Purple Haize
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#612056
stokesjokes wrote: October 14th, 2020, 8:58 pm There’s no real argument for Bird or Magic being better at this point.

Wilt never did anything from a team-success standpoint with his crazy stats.

We’re left with Jordan, Russel, and Kareem

But, like Ballcoach, you’re throwing out outdated ideas with no support- LeBron James has been first team all defense 5x. He’s top 10 in the league in defensive win shares at 35 years old.
Bird did absolutely unreal things. His basketball IQ was off the charts. Magic the same. The only thing that stopped Kareem was age. Wilt was unstoppable (until he got to the free throw line) and did put up crazy insane stats both in and out of the bedroom. Russel has the rings as a player and Coach. And the one thing they ALL did that LeBron did not was they transformed the game.
@Jonathan Carone hit the nail on the head he could play defense if he wanted too but he chooses not too (very Harden of him). I mean he’s probably a better defender than Bird I’ll give you that. But if I wanted someone locked down I can think of a host of players I’d chose, Jordan amongst them, to do it.
“Load Management “ is such a joke. Yeah it probably shows my age but dudes now with state of the art training facilities and charter flights on team planes....please. Load Management is a load. :D
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#612059
That is a whole other debate.

Whenever you get into a debate about the top 10 players all time you're going to be talking about all time greats. Bird and Magic are all time greats and just because LeBron has surpassed them doesn't change the fact that those 2 were great.

He has the stats to back up but what sets him apart is how long he has been able to do it. He was 18 years old doing things in the NBA veterans couldn't do. Now that he is a veteran he is still adding stuff to his game.

I'm not even a LeBron fan. He annoys the living crap out of me so it feels kind of dirty sticking up for him. :lol:
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By RubberMallet
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#612076
I know people who still think bird and magic are better than jordan. They have a well deserved lore that really in the end at some point longevity takes precedent over style. all 3 of them (bird/magic/lebron) are very similar players but each had their own way of playing. But at this point lebron has done it longer and with lesser players around him.

I discount the championship argument somewhat. both bird/kareem/magic were on stud teams. lebron had to manufacture teams to even give him a shot. He dragged a rag tag bunch of misfits to the finals year after year in cleveland it seemed.

Sorry Russell and Wilt played in some of the weakest competition of all the people mentioned. wilt was a worse shooter than shaq for crying out loud.
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612090
Not to mention, Wilt's ego kept him from being even better. He tried shooting underhanded free throws and was much better with them, but stopped because he didn't want to look silly. Imagine MJ or Kobe not doing something that gave them a competitive advantage.
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By Purple Haize
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#612097
stokesjokes wrote: October 15th, 2020, 10:57 am Not to mention, Wilt's ego kept him from being even better. He tried shooting underhanded free throws and was much better with them, but stopped because he didn't want to look silly. Imagine MJ or Kobe not doing something that gave them a competitive advantage.
That’s why I didn’t put Wilt ahead of Jordan
I’d put Kobe on my Top 10 and ahead of LeBron but I know that will get people all worked up
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612105
You are judging on a different standard than the rest of us if you're putting Kobe ahead of LeBron. From a straight stats/success perspective, there's no argument, LeBron is miles ahead. From a mentality/personality perspectve, Kobe is top 2 for sure. Heck, Jimmy Butler is ahead of LeBron if you're looking at mentality.
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By Purple Haize
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#612110
Does LeBron have any 3 peats? Back to Back?
8 straight Finals is great. But Russell had how many again?
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612112
Back to back in 2012-2013. 4 championships, 10 finals appearances. He’s taken his teams to the finals more than half of the seasons he’s played, that’s nuts. And some of those Cleveland teams he had to drag there by himself, which even MJ couldn’t do.

I’m not arguing against Russell, he’s in the pantheon, but you can’t minimize LeBron’s accomplishments at this point. Between the team success, individual success, and career stats, there are less than a handful of guys in the conversation with LeBron.
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By RubberMallet
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#612114
running a team of nobodies up against a buzzsaw that is the spurs dynasty is nothing to sneeze at. you can fault lebron for losing after he himself built the teams. thats legitimate knock on the guy. but prior to miami, what he did was simply amazing. i'm sure if he had a worthy, wilkes, kareem, and Mcadoo team around him he's of won with ease.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#612115
stokesjokes wrote: October 15th, 2020, 3:14 pmsome of those Cleveland teams he had to drag there by himself, which even MJ couldn’t do.
You completely lost me on this line. Inaccurate.
I’m not arguing against Russell, he’s in the pantheon, but you can’t minimize LeBron’s accomplishments at this point. Between the team success, individual success, and career stats, there are less than a handful of guys in the conversation with LeBron.
Agreed
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612116
I should rephrase, which MJ *didn't* do. He never got to the finals until he had Pippen and Grant. LeBron went in 2006 with Larry Hughes as his #2.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#612121
The NBA Leastern Division was much easier path to the Finals than Jordan ever had to face with the Bad Boys and Larry Legend's Cs. Not a fair comparison.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#612136
yeah incomparable. knicks, pacers, bad boys, celtics. not saying that its still not an accomplishment but jordan's 80's were the toughest and he literally had noone until pippen came a long. and even after that, he had pippen. everyone else, was effectively a role player at best. horace and bj had an allstar appearance in 94 i believe.
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612137
Don’t forget Rodman for the 2nd three-peat, so two HOF teammates at the same time during that run.

Kukoc was also very good.
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612138
I was just scrolling through basketball reference looking at MJ’s teammates, and, oddly enough, a mostly washed George Gervin spent his last year in the league on one of MJ’s early Chicago teams.
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By RubberMallet
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#612145
stokesjokes wrote:Don’t forget Rodman for the 2nd three-peat, so two HOF teammates at the same time during that run.

Kukoc was also very good.
kukic was still barely a 6th man truly and was a horrible defender. and rodman was kind of a flake and did not defend they way he did as a piston. still good but no superstar.
By stokesjokes
Posts
#612146
Kukoc was a terrible defender, but he was 6th man of the year, averaged 30 minutes a game. The only reason he was 6th man was because he had Rodman and Pippen, two hall of famers, in front of him. The 2 years after they left, Kukoc started and average 18, 5, and 5.
By lynchburgwildcats
Posts
#612500
Purple Haize wrote: October 14th, 2020, 6:13 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 14th, 2020, 6:09 pm He’s not even an all time first teamer for you? Ok Skip.
We’ve been over this. Top 25 probably. Top 10-12? Nope.
Have you considered checking yourself into a mental institution or seeking some other kind of professional help?
By lynchburgwildcats
Posts
#612503
And lol at this notion LeBron hasn’t transformed his game. He couldn’t shoot when he came into the league, making just 29% of his threes with only 14.5% of his FGAs as threes. He has shot 35.5% from three since going to Miami with 23.2% of his FGAs being threes. Additionally, from 2004-12, a quarter of his shots were long twos, since then it’s only been 13.6%. He’s also become a far more frequent passer in the last few years. His assist % the last four seasons has been 39.4% or higher, including leading the league this year, and he has only done that once prior.
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