If you want to talk ASUN smack or ramble ad nauseum about your favorite pro or major college teams, this is the place to let it rip.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

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By rmiller1959
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#631760
LU 57 wrote: September 15th, 2021, 7:39 am The Athletic has an article regarding G5 realignment this morning. Nothing particularly revelatory. Kind of throws water on us jointing the AAC.

https://theathletic.com/2826426/2021/09 ... ed_article
Two random thoughts:

Would our fortunes change once they've settled on a new president?

BYU is theologically conservative as we are and they were targeted by progressive groups the last time the Big 12 considered expansion. This time, those groups were either quiet or things moved too quickly for them to interfere. What lessons could we learn from them?
By paradox
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#631761
Two things...I don't see us jumping into anything unless it is extremely advantageous. Secondly, our identity post-Malik has to be factored in on the other side. If we're consistently competive after Malik, then we should be an attractive option. So, there are too many hypotheticals in play. We'll have to be patient.
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By Sly Fox
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#631763
Biggest surprise in the The Athletic article is that there seems to be growing interest around the AAC in Louisiana's candidacy. Interesting. Then again I wonder about their intel if they have Southern Miss as a legitimate candidate considering their athletic bedget.

As for rmiller1959's questions, I suspect if we had a legitimate permanent president in place it would greatly improve our reputational challenges. There is no question that the noise of last summer and the school's inability to institute real change in leadership is hurting us badly in this round of realignment. If we were legitmately comparing athletic trajectory, on field success, facilities and athletic budgets we would likely by one of the first choices for the AAC. Sadly we still have Jr's wing man Prevo settling permanently into the highest paid retirement he could ever imagine. Sigh. Sigh.

The lessons learned from BYU is that presidents can look beyond religious and cultural differences if they see upside in return. Our fanbase needs to grow significnatly before we gain those allowances.
By olldflame
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#631765
I'm sure opinions on the expanded/restructured MAC are probably mixed at best here, but for all sports it makes a lot of sense in many ways. Seems that Ian at least looks at it as a possibility.


I don't think it will happen though. If the schools proposed were to join the MAC, most of them would immediately be at the top of the standings, and a lot of current championship contenders would be mid-pack at best. It would make the conference stronger, but of course it's the presidents of the CURRENT members that would need to approve the changes, and I suspect most of them would not consider it to be in their best interest.
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By Sly Fox
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#631767
I suspect you are confusing the Mid-American Conference (MAC) with a hypothetical Mid-Atlantic conference. There are no existing members.
By olldflame
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#631768
Sly Fox wrote: September 15th, 2021, 9:45 am I suspect you are confusing the Mid-American Conference (MAC) with a hypothetical Mid-Atlantic conference. There are no existing members.
Correct. I just saw those initials and immediatly thought of the MAC. Should have looked at it closer before posting. The hypothetical Mid-Atlantic idea has a lot of appeal to me.
By stokesjokes
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#631771
I would love regional conferences. One of the special things about college sports is rivalries. Hard to build them up when you’re playing teams from across the country.
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By TH Spangler
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#631774
I'm no longer considering the aac an option. The new Mac is interesting depending who's actually included. JMU, ODU doesn't do it for me. But add Marshall, App State and Coastal then its interesting.

IM said he sees ND and UConn independents in football long term. New Mac for Olympic sports and football indy seems attractive.
Last edited by TH Spangler on September 15th, 2021, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By BlueBlood
Posts
#631775
rmiller1959 wrote: September 15th, 2021, 9:14 am Two random thoughts:

Would our fortunes change once they've settled on a new president?

BYU is theologically conservative as we are and they were targeted by progressive groups the last time the Big 12 considered expansion. This time, those groups were either quiet or things moved too quickly for them to interfere. What lessons could we learn from them?
I kind of think we have at least three things that other schools have a hard time with:
1) Christian Conservatism.
2) Academics / alleged Diploma Mill
3) The Jerry crap-show.

If it was just #1, I think LU probably gets a nice conference invite (just like BYU did) soon. Deep down, I think most folks can get over the fact that culturally LU isn't going to align with secular teachings and behavior.

Every time I hear the diploma mill argument, it obviously hurts. I have two daughters at LU and I think they are getting a fine education. Both girls had nice SAT scores and both were accepted at FSU and USF here in FL. I think there are a ton of kids on campus that fit that same mold. I think the biggest problem is likely that LU does no have separate accreditation for the online product. So, the residential students SAT scores, graduation rates, etc get lumped in with online students scores. And, there is no question that the online product is not as academically vigorous as the residential instruction. Contrary to LU's combined accreditation - schools like Purdue and Penn State have separate accreditation for their online products (thus protecting their on-campus standards and ratings). Honestly, this is something that needs to be considered at LU. LU academic rankings would immediately jump if the residential and online were separated. Now, if this happens, somebody would probably need to do some creative accounting to get the online money back to the mothership.

Then there is the crap show we just all lived through and the whole country saw. Its still fresh. And even though we are desperately ready to move on, others aren't. I still think that the board is purposely keeping Prevo in place just to allow some "quiet time". And honestly, I have enjoyed our sports teams being the main LU story lately. When they took the "Acting" name off of Prevo, some were very upset at this. I was not (even though I'm not much of a Prevo fan). I think it is a smart move. LU has quietly had its first non-Falwell president. And the next president will replace Prevo, not Falwell. The more distance, the better in my book. Again, I'm enjoying the quiet and I know my daughters (and their LU friends) are.

I obviously hope that LU remains true to #1. I think there should be an action plan to fix #2. And some distance is needed for #3.
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By Sly Fox
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#631778
TH Spangler wrote: September 15th, 2021, 10:33 am The new Mac is interesting depending who's actually included. JMU, ODU New Mac for Olympic sports and football indy seems attractive.
We would not get an invitation to this hypothetical Mid-Atlantic without football. We are stuck with the ASUN for the foreseeable future unless we land in a football league.

The way Ian seemed to be pushing toward the Mid-Atlantic concept in the short interview has me inclined to believe that perhaps the rumors of our school buying the carcass of the rapidly dying MEAC to build a new league with auto bids in place is not crazy talk. Do I think it is likely? No. But it certainly does leave one wondering. There are few vehicles to geta new league assembled without losing NCAA Tourney credits. Splitting CUSA is proving less likely with impending losses to the core required to maintain auto bids with new league.
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By rmiller1959
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#631787
BlueBlood wrote: September 15th, 2021, 10:33 am
2) Academics / alleged Diploma Mill

If it was just #1, I think LU probably gets a nice conference invite (just like BYU did) soon. Deep down, I think most folks can get over the fact that culturally LU isn't going to align with secular teachings and behavior.

Every time I hear the diploma mill argument, it obviously hurts. I have two daughters at LU and I think they are getting a fine education. Both girls had nice SAT scores and both were accepted at FSU and USF here in FL. I think there are a ton of kids on campus that fit that same mold. I think the biggest problem is likely that LU does no have separate accreditation for the online product. So, the residential students SAT scores, graduation rates, etc get lumped in with online students scores. And, there is no question that the online product is not as academically vigorous as the residential instruction. Contrary to LU's combined accreditation - schools like Purdue and Penn State have separate accreditation for their online products (thus protecting their on-campus standards and ratings). Honestly, this is something that needs to be considered at LU. LU academic rankings would immediately jump if the residential and online were separated. Now, if this happens, somebody would probably need to do some creative accounting to get the online money back to the mothership.
I'm not sure what this is about. Neither Purdue Global nor Penn State World Campus is separately accredited from the institutions they belong to. The same regional accrediting authority accredits both programs at those institutions. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges (SACSCOC) accredits residential and online programs at Liberty. The diplomas don't identify whether your degree is online or residential because SACSCOC accredits them both:

- "Penn State is regionally accredited through the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. The credits you earn with Penn State’s online programs will be identical to those received on any Penn State campus." ~ "Penn State World Campus Is Penn State"

- "Purdue Global is regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission (HLC), and we’re committed to the highest educational standards. " ~ "Why Choose Purdue Global"

If you mean the programs are administered separately, that is already the case. Liberty University Online has its own provost, manages its own budget, and has its own deans, faculty, and staff in each school. The only difference between LUO and the schools you mentioned is that they have a catchy name for their online programs.
By stokesjokes
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#631788
TH Spangler wrote: September 15th, 2021, 1:15 pm


AAC looking for public schools.
A quick look shows that the AAC has the 2nd most private schools of any conference, first being ACC. I would think that would make it less of an issue for them than the other conferences that have none.
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By LUalum12
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#631789
I will add something of value to this as well. I graduated from the Cyber Security Master's program in 2018. The curriculum was top notch and rigorous. Nothing shallow or easy about it. In fact it has been recognized by the US government. I know what I am talking about because, I also spent 3.5 years working for SANS Institute (World Renown company that specializes in Cyber Security Training) SANS certs will cost you upwards of 7k per cert, why because they are considered the best training in the business. I am here to tell anyone that wants to know, the Cyber program at Liberty was better than the Cert courses I took at SANS. So, for anyone to say that its a diploma mill or less vigorous :( they must have took an easy avenue to a degree but I can assure its not that way across the board.
By ballcoach15
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#631791
I don't think who the president is now, has much weight in conference Realignment.

Who can name the president of each ASUN school, from memory ?
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By thepostman
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#631792
That is easy to answer. The school's president/Chancellor's are the ones doing the voting on whether to invite a school or not. The fact ours is non-existent doesn't help us much no matter how good Ian is.
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By rogers3
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#631794
ballcoach15 wrote: September 10th, 2021, 1:00 pm JMU needs to stay where they are at. If JMU is good enough for SBC or AAC, then LU should go to ACC or SEC.
In what area do you think LU is superior to JMU? Other than cash on hand, they show better than LU in every area other than men's basketball. They are surely thought of as highly as LU in regards to football. Do you feel the need to always be obtuse?
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By BlueBlood
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#631795
rmiller1959 wrote: September 15th, 2021, 3:51 pm
I'm not sure what this is about. Neither Purdue Global nor Penn State World Campus is separately accredited from the institutions they belong to. The same regional accrediting authority accredits both programs at those institutions. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges (SACSCOC) accredits residential and online programs at Liberty. The diplomas don't identify whether your degree is online or residential because SACSCOC accredits them both:

- "Penn State is regionally accredited through the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. The credits you earn with Penn State’s online programs will be identical to those received on any Penn State campus." ~ "Penn State World Campus Is Penn State"

- "Purdue Global is regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission (HLC), and we’re committed to the highest educational standards. " ~ "Why Choose Purdue Global"

If you mean the programs are administered separately, that is already the case. Liberty University Online has its own provost, manages its own budget, and has its own deans, faculty, and staff in each school. The only difference between LUO and the schools you mentioned is that they have a catchy name for their online programs.
Here is the Higher Learning Commission website. If you search for "Purdue", you can see that Purdue Global is listed as separately accredited.

https://www.hlcommission.org/component/directory/#

I'll double-check Penn State.
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By BlueBlood
Posts
#631796
LUalum12 wrote: September 15th, 2021, 4:21 pm I will add something of value to this as well. I graduated from the Cyber Security Master's program in 2018. The curriculum was top notch and rigorous. Nothing shallow or easy about it. In fact it has been recognized by the US government. I know what I am talking about because, I also spent 3.5 years working for SANS Institute (World Renown company that specializes in Cyber Security Training) SANS certs will cost you upwards of 7k per cert, why because they are considered the best training in the business. I am here to tell anyone that wants to know, the Cyber program at Liberty was better than the Cert courses I took at SANS. So, for anyone to say that its a diploma mill or less vigorous :( they must have took an easy avenue to a degree but I can assure its not that way across the board.
I would think that most of the folks who use the "diploma mill" argument against LU are referring to online undergrad classes. I've heard good things about the LU theology graduate programs too.

Several of my daughters' friends took LU undergrad classes while still in high school and have commented that they were extremely easy as compared to their now-on-campus experience.
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By Kricket
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#631799
I have two degrees from the so called diploma mill. It's always been annoying to hear the people on this board talk it down, as nobody has ever looked down on my degrees when interviewing for jobs or any other situation of any significance. I suppose it could be because I'm up north and most people don't know what Liberty is, and those who do are generally positive about it.

The undergrad classes were no easier than the two other schools public schools I went to on campus in Wisconsin, and I skipped half the classes and still did just fine.

I will say I enjoyed the structure a lot more at LUO as everything was run much better than the public schools I attended.

In terms of the MBA I have, hard to tell if it's harder or easier as I don't have another experience to compare it to.

I will say there was one student in my capstone course that I was baffled by them being able to graduate that I felt devalued my degree.

My wife is doing her executive MBA up here at Marquette, and she has people in the program that she had the same experience with. She claims the program is a joke, so I suppose you can find anyone to say anything about their education.
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By BlueBlood
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#631801
Yeah, your wife's experience at Marquette sounds similar to mine at St. Joseph's in Philly. It was honestly busywork - it was not difficult. I think that is common. I have a friend that graduated from Penn and he is absolutely livid with the how loose Penn is with their graduate programs. He feels like it absolutely devalues his undergrad degree. I think there is a general knowledge that this happens across academia - which is why I've always assumed that the folks who call LU a diploma mill are probably pointing more to the online undergrad side.

I don't know the inter-workings of all the data points used by USNWR, Princeton, etc. But I know that they do take big stock in Freshman/Sophomore SAT/ACT scores. Its why its difficult to get into some schools as a Freshman or Sophomore, but much easier as a Junior. They also value degree-completion rates within X years. By its very nature (being flexible time wise), online usually lags behind residential for speed of degree completion. I know another data point that some of the ranking services use is salary after graduation. LU is naturally disadvantaged here (both residential and online), because a lot of LU grads go into Christian ministry - where pay is not generally competitive.
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By rmiller1959
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#631802
BlueBlood wrote: September 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
rmiller1959 wrote: September 15th, 2021, 3:51 pm
I'm not sure what this is about. Neither Purdue Global nor Penn State World Campus is separately accredited from the institutions they belong to. The same regional accrediting authority accredits both programs at those institutions. The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges (SACSCOC) accredits residential and online programs at Liberty. The diplomas don't identify whether your degree is online or residential because SACSCOC accredits them both:

- "Penn State is regionally accredited through the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. The credits you earn with Penn State’s online programs will be identical to those received on any Penn State campus." ~ "Penn State World Campus Is Penn State"

- "Purdue Global is regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission (HLC), and we’re committed to the highest educational standards. " ~ "Why Choose Purdue Global"

If you mean the programs are administered separately, that is already the case. Liberty University Online has its own provost, manages its own budget, and has its own deans, faculty, and staff in each school. The only difference between LUO and the schools you mentioned is that they have a catchy name for their online programs.
Here is the Higher Learning Commission website. If you search for "Purdue", you can see that Purdue Global is listed as separately accredited.

https://www.hlcommission.org/component/directory/#

I'll double-check Penn State.
Penn State is accredited under one name, and the tab mentions that distance learning is included in the accreditation.

https://www.msche.org/institution/0544/

Purdue probably has multiple entries because of its structure, where each school is a satellite campus with its own chancellor and even separate academic departments from the main campus. Purdue Global may also still be under its accreditation at Kaplan University, which is what it was before Purdue bought it rather than build an online program from scratch.

For LUO to approximate what they do, they'd have to have separate departments of business, government, engineering, et al., from the departments on the residential campus, and that's probably not going to happen because it costs too much money.
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