[flameshaw]

Don't give up on the AAC yet.

[tyndal23]

I am dying to find optimism in the mess of the past few days. Please give me a reason for optimism. Because I have not seen any reason to be optimistic based on anything in the past past five pages of this thread or anywhere else online.

Cowboy up Sly, you were the one who said we weren’t interested in CUSA a few weeks ago and I am relieved we didn’t get sucked in. Evaluate my Big 12 $ buy in theory and weigh in on it - you are about the only one in here with some insider knowledge and experience on these matters. Assuming Prevo and Ian put something like I stated together - would it get serious consideration and who would vote us out? No clue if there is animosity from Baylor regarding Ian - but I think TTU,TCU would way rather have cash $ and LU over SMU, geography helps Cinci,WVU ( and possible Memphis as quad ). I see Boise, Air Force, CSU and possibly SDSU as candidates from 2 additions west and Memphis, LU ( with $ buy in) from East. UCF in a quad with 3 Tx schools and Texas Tech in a quad with BYU,Boise, and the other western add, USF isn’t moving the needle and LU $ shoves us right past them. - critique away - I won’t whine...

[ballah09]

If we only had a real president thats in the academic field.... The magic he/she could've done to build relationships with the other presidents.

[Purple Haize]

[quote=ballcoach15 post_id=633710 time=1634905741 user_id=2260]
If expansion went by "complete athletic departments" Liberty would be invited to join SEC, ACC, or Big 12. No G5 school that I know of, has an overall athletic program as good as Liberty's.
[/quote]

You might need to get out more

[Humble_Opinion]

Here’s how we stacked up in 2019 to the BIG 12. Obviously, we aren’t quite there yet. LU’s net income in 2019 was ~$288M. We have the ability to get there, but additions to the stadium, probably additional support staff and more raises. Oh and most important… more butts in seats at games.

[Humble_Opinion]

I think the BIG 12 is quite a stretch though. We would fit into the AAC almost immediately. I think UH or SMU might be potential targets for them though.

[Purple Haize]

I have come around to embracing Football independence for now. I even wrote a parody song about us being left out in realignment this round and the death of CUSA. It's to the tune of Whitesnake's "Here I go Again".

"I don't know where we're going.
But I sure know where we've been.
Hanging on false hope from Conference USA...
But we've made up our minds, we aint wastin no more time.  So here we go again!

Though we keep thinkin we're the answer.
We're never quite what they're looking for...O Lord, we pray You give us strength to carry on.

Cause we know what it means...to beat Coastal's best two unbeaten teams. So here we go again.

Here we go again on our own.
The Sunbelt didnt want us. That is known!
We thought Marshall, the Herd might throw us a bone.
But they've made up their minds.  They arent wasting no more time.  So here we go again.

Just another conference in need of rescue,
Waiting for LU's sweet charity,
But now we're gonna hold out, for the rest of our days,
Cause they know what we mean, they turned down $24 million for us to play their teams.

So here their story ends.
But here we go again."

I’m visualizing Tawny and Jaguars

[tyndal23]

I think the BIG 12 is quite a stretch though. We would fit into the AAC almost immediately. I think UH or SMU might be potential targets for them though.

UH already in.
Houston - is that who u are referring to ?
SMU is the rumored add - but I can tell you TX schools do not want SMU - they have a very small but rich fan base and do nothing for Dallas tv eyeballs. They do have a lot of political power, but Presidents vote not Politicians.

[Purple Haize]

CUSA with ODU Marshall and JMU was a perfect fit for LU. Without those schools it MIGHT fall into the category of better than nothing. But not by much. AAC seems like the best place now, but if those schools end up in the Sun Belt then….

[tyndal23]

CUSA with ODU Marshall and JMU was a perfect fit for LU. Without those schools it MIGHT fall into the category of better than nothing. But not by much. AAC seems like the best place now, but if those schools end up in the Sun Belt then….

[lueer]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

[tyndal23]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

[jbock13]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

Come with me... and you'll be... in a world of pure imagination...

[tyndal23]

[quote=lueer post_id=633787 time=<a href="tel:1634957216" data-original-title="" title="">1634957216</a> user_id=35]
Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

Come with me... and you'll be... in a world of pure imagination...

https://youtu.be/SVi3-PrQ0pY[/quote]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

Come with me... and you'll be... in a world of pure imagination...

https://youtu.be/SVi3-PrQ0pY

Break it all down for us - rumored next 4 are from the following : Memphis,USF,Boise,Colorado St, SDSU. Where do we rank academically and weightg that vs a net $200 million, then assume Big 12 loses 4 original Big 12 teams and factor in that amount and “academics”.

[rtb72]

I'm not sure where all this less than desirable "academic" standing talk came or is coming from. Nevertheless, I looked at our Carnegie Classification and found that when compared to other schools...surprise to me, Boise, ironically enough was paralleled with us. Not saying that's good or bad, just trying to understand the academic piece. Yes, we have a lot of online and what CC listed as "higher ed-part time", and I get that this is in large part due to our O-line, but the emergence of virtual education will only get stronger and more and more schools are going to go to it. My current "retirement job" is working at Elon University. Of course, they have different accreditation(s), but having seen first hand their course content and some of their academic philosophies for "higher learning", I am not impressed at some of the schools under the university umbrella.
While they and many other schools have a lower acceptance percentage, I can tell you that is in part due to biased acceptance based on regions and diversity....not completely on academic standing. The same is true for MANY public universities in NC. I also noticed that the "inclusion" piece for the Carnegie Classification was one in which LU did not report for. Not sure why or if they weighs into our supposed classification. Someone much smarter than me may be able to explain, but I guess I'm not fully understanding how we are any less credible than many other schools seemingly attractive to these conferences.

[ballah09]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

Where do we start? One, we’re not a research university. Our leadership censors on what our faculty can study or not. Second, we have no academic freedom. Third, we offer no tenure. We consistently lose good quality professors to only to replace them with people who have little to no experience teaching. Then you got the whole LUonline thing too.

Our academic profile is bad.

[rtb72]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

---------------------------

Where do we start? One, we’re not a research university.

Just looked at the list of those that are. Many of those we compete against either on the field, recruiting, or in similar alignment are not listed.

https://www.washington.edu/tools/universities94.html

------------------------------
Our leadership censors on what our faculty can study or not. Second, we have no academic freedom.

And this is different from many other institutions, how? This is not an anomaly. Not saying I agree, because I certainly do not, but this is not uncommon, it just depends on what is considered prudent in the current world of academia's philosophy.

https://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/co ... sor-afraid

_________________________

Third, we offer no tenure.

Has its pros and cons, but I found this article interesting. The lack of tenure can allow for more accountability on performance, and might I add...a good return on investment for faculty.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardved ... 20300115cf

___________________________

We consistently lose good quality professors to only to replace them with people who have little to no experience teaching.

This is in part due to salaries. I agree LU needs to focus more on this area and provide merit based/performance increases as practical.

_____________________________

Then you got the whole LUonline thing too.

What is the issue with our Online? My nephew was a resident student at LU and took some online classes. One in particular was a religion course, which he stated he had only a couple tests, but had to summarize all 66 books of the Bible as one of his assignments. He said the course work was equally or more strenuous due to the writing assignments. Afterward, he said he'd stick with the classroom. I'm not sure if it's the content or complexity of the course you're referring to, but I've heard our online was an issue, but I haven't seen exactly why. I'm sure not everyone is going to be happy, but that's at any institution.

_________________________

Our academic profile is bad.

[Tnobes]

Big 12 isnt taking LU regardless of how much money we
offered. Our academic profile is pathetic. Need to work on that to give ourselves a chance.

Really? - lay it all out there with some data please...

Where do we start? One, we’re not a research university. Our leadership censors on what our faculty can study or not. Second, we have no academic freedom. Third, we offer no tenure. We consistently lose good quality professors to only to replace them with people who have little to no experience teaching. Then you got the whole LUonline thing too.

Our academic profile is bad.

Everything you listed is a positive not a negative

[Ill flame]

Other than AAU status there seems to be two main metrics that universities are compared by. Their Carnegie classification (measures research activity) and the us news and world report (very flawed). Compared to the universities we would like to consider our peers on the field we are way behind in both areas and that matters although it's not everything. Right now we are rated as an R3 by Carnegie which is the lowest research rating. Considering we just received this rating within the past 5 years which made us a "national university" I would say we are making real progress. The link below gives you an idea where we need to be and that's as an R2 in the shorter term with R1 being the long term goal. This seems very achievable with our resources. Historically we haven't been a research university but that seems to be slowly changing. Christians have always been on the forefront of science and research, I think it is important for liberty to remind people of that.

Right now we are ranked in the 299-391 range which is essentially dead last among national universities. We don't need to game the system like many universities unabashedly do to move up in the rankings but if we can get somewhere in the 150 range that would put us near the bottom tier of P5 schools. If we can accomplish this it will help us avoid the Boise St treatment where they would likely be in the pac 12 right now but don't have the academics.

Compared to several G5 schools we are doing better in academics based on the above metrics but we should always strive to be better. If we aspire to be among the P5 and mentioned in the same breath as notre dame and BYU we should act like it in all facets to include research.

"OT: The Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education - 2018 Update" https://csnbbs.com/thread-867459.html

[Humble_Opinion]

We knew we had met the requirements to have our Carnegie classification updated to a Research Institution 6 years ago. We just had to wait for the updated study on their end. As far as breadth of degree offerings, LU is pretty diverse. The combination of an accredited flight school, osteopathic medicine and a law school is very unique. Unfortunately, in the eyes of many of these college presidents, I believe we probably hit their radar as a Christian discipline dominated school (School of Divinity). It also is true that many of the metrics covered via USNews hurt us, but in some cases only due to how the metrics are defined and measured. LU has improved overall, but the process of developing a solid academic reputation takes a long time. LUO used to be more scary to folks. But I know there were several institutions who have been interested in learning more about our operations because they are unique and lucrative. I ha e to think that interest is still there in some respects considering the disruptions caused by C19.

[stokesjokes]

Anyone listen to the Malcolm Gladwell podcast on the US News and World Report rankings?

They’re a mess, basically. For me, if that’s something that’s going to hold us back in athletics, I can’t think of a good reason not to play ball to get our ranking improved. It is what it is.

[Purple Haize]

Academically LU is better than it was but still has a very long way to go. You only need to start at the top and see where the people got their Terminal degrees from. Then move into the academic rank and file and look at The Who where and what involved in their publications and presentations. Talk to folks in Regional and National Academic circles and see how often a Professors work from LU is mentioned or brought up.
While the Carnegie and US News reports are very important there’s an underlying current to them. If LU had a better academic reputation within the Disciplines they’d find it easier to navigate those rankings

[ballcoach15]

Academic rankings are like football polls,

Not accurate

[Sly Fox]

Thanks for the encouraging words, guys. No one brought up any refreshing thoughts. It is just stay the course and in the next round in the 2030-2035 range we will get another shot. I get it. Perhaps wishful thinking clouded my assessment of the situation. But being lumped into discussions with the McNeeses & Sams of the world is a big slap of reality into how we are perceived by schools that I would have assumed were at least somewhat peers. Oh well.

No one wanted to be in that CUSA mess left behind. Frankly the Belt was never going to happen for us due to budgets. The AAC taking the six schools they chose was a stunner. Disney clearly was pulling the strings.

So let's reassess based on the actions of the past few days. Here's how the recent moves shake out:

AAC
Charlotte
ECU
FAU
Memphis
Navy (Football-Only)
Rice
SMU
Temple
Tulane
Tulsa
UAB
UNT
USF
UTSA
Wichita State (Non-Football)

Sun Belt
App State
Arkansas-Little Rock (Non-Football)
Arkansas State
Coastal Carolina
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
JMU
Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe
Marshall
ODU
South Alabama
Southern Miss
Texas State
Troy
UT-Arlington (Non-Football)

CUSA
FIU
Louisiana Tech
MTSU
WKU
UTEP

Independents
Army
Liberty
New Mexico State
Notre Dame*
UConn
UMass

Clearly the AAC & Belt feel like they are full. It appears the Texan additions probably placated Navy enough for them to want to stick around and no go Indy. So the AAC is likely locked in unless Wichita State assesses the situation and decides a run at the Big East is in order. Of course looming over the AAC is the inevitable losses they expect to the Big XII (aka Memphis & USF). The non-football Belt members are already looking to jump and most certainly will now. I expect to see UALR in the ASUN post haste. UTA is rumored to be headed to the MVC. They won't be missed.

Conference USA is in a world of hurt. Setting aside that the remaining members allegedly rejected the "Marshall Plan" to drive toward a Mid-Atlantic lineup based primarily on their rejection of us, CUSA needs to get back up to 8 members pronto. There is a two-year grace period to retain their FBS status which aligns with transition time for call-ups. There also remains the possibility of team or to being poached by another league. MTSU & WKU are mentioned most frequently as possible MAC targets. I don't see that happening. UTEP has rejected the idea of independence which means they likely are going to beg CUSA leadership to invite NMSU so they will not be out on an island.

There are also will be pressure from La Tech & UTEP to make sure any FCS call-ups are from Texas, Louisiana o rmaybe even Arkansas. The options here in the Lone State State do not have the necessary resources to step up in spite of Sam's success on the football field. The budgets for Tarleton State, Sam Houston State, Stephen F Austin, McNeese State and Central Arkansas are mediocre by FCS standards and atrocious by FBS statndards. North Alabama will get looks from CUSA as well.

CUSA could look to the Dakotas for a cluster of call-ups. Not sure how much appetite there would be to pony up the costs outside of NDSU. And I doubt the Bison would want to go it alone. But a pod of two or four could be part of the league's recovery plan.

FIU will likely maintain their rivalry with FAU in spite of the conference shakeups. But otherwise they are seriously on an island. The options in the Sunshine State to get a call up are even more dire. I could see FGCU get a non-football invitation.

What does all of this mean for us in football? It means that there will be less slots with Sun Belt & AAC schools for us to schedule moving forward. It means that even though we won't be in CUSA they will likely make up a massive chunk of our schedule for the next decade. Thankfully we signed those long term contracts with the ACC schools whe we did. Ian will have to perform some magic to get us P5 contracts moving forward.

Is it possible that CUSA leftovers might pursue independence to avoid the CUSA mess? Sure. UTEP was the most obvious candidate and they have already publicly stated they are riding this all out. La Tech is eating a ton of humble pie right now after looking down on their Louisiana brotehrs for decades. Now they are are sitting below ULL & ULM with the distinct possiblility that McNeese (!?!) will be a conference mate. But outside of parking their olympics in the ASUN and going Indy, they are out of options. FIU could also go the ASUN/Indy route. But all the leftovers have financial incentives to ride this out for awhile with exit fees & NCAA credits still coming their way.

tyndal23 - I feel your passion and your optimism. But I do not see a way under any crcumstances that we can buy our way into the Big XII. Those schools have little incentive for our dollars. And we do not have the unending pools of cash that some assume. Our best shot is to leverage the Big XII schools as our only real shot at scheduling games with the P5 outside of th ACC moving forward. If we can maintain success on the field, there might be value in a Baylor, TCU or BYU booking us out of conference. It took decades for BYU to get to the point where teams would risk scheduling them. Ditto for TCU. But Ian will have to work those channels like crazy to make all of this happen. The good news is that we have a sea of scheduling slots available beyond 2025. That was intentional with realignment looming. Now let's see what we can manage. There have to be more than a few ADs who have sympathy for our predicament.

The only thing I see disrupting our existing football contracts moving forward is we may see FIU or NMSU dates moving around. Otherwise it is all in place. The problem now is filling those slew of slots after 2025 with games that will be intriguing and not just leveraging the FCS call-ups who will need guarantees to keep their athletic departments afloat.

Come on, Ian. Show us what you can do!

[Liberty22]

No one is lumping us into the McNeeses and Sam’s of the world. We’re literally lumped with Army, UConn etc right now and will be as long as they remain independent. This end of the world were no better than FCS because we didn’t get a sunbelt invite makes no sense to me. We’re going to be just fine. Scheduling will be just fine. We’re FBS guys. Let’s keep rolling.