[A.G.]

http://www.vmikeydets.com/article.asp?articleid=78890

VMI is making some much needed improvements to its stadium, along with the baseball facility. Knowing how disappointed many of their alumni were to leave the SoCon, is it possible that A LOT of money is being ponied up to improve their athletic facilities to the point they can LEAVE the Big South and rejoin the SoCon.

Before you laugh at this idea, think about it. Facilities help draw recruits--even to a military school. No one can knock VMI's academics so you have to bury them on facilities.

I've heard no rumors, just me speculating why, once they left the SoCon, did they "find" the money to upgrade???

[bigsmooth]

i do not think the SoCon is an option, however the patriot league might be. having used to work at VMI, their football facilities really need a facelift.

[LUconn]

I always thought their stadium looked nice. From the road anyway. Wouldn't know about their other stuff.

[Sly Fox]

Over on the VMI board they seemed convinced that they could return to the SoCon. They consider their move to the Big South a mistake and they are regretting it. The SoCon might consider them a better fit than CCU or other football schools. While the Patriot League would make more sense IMHO< there is th ematter of scholies vs. grants in aid. That makes the Keydets more likely to remain in Big South unless somethign worked out with the SoCon.

As for the facilities upgrades, they are LONG overdue. But its great to see any Big South members investing in their programs.

[Purple Haize]

I drove by the stadium work at VMI the other day, it it isn't going to change all that much apparently. They were ripping up the track when I was there, but didn't look like anything going on with either side of the field vis a vis the bleachers.
As for VMI leaving the Big South that is going to be tough. Difficult to add a new school that does not have a lot of "Title IX" sports. They are in the Big South now and are going to have to live with it for awhile. The Patriot League is the only option IMO, but that is a few years off.

[Sly Fox]

On the Keydets site they had the following plans that were orginally drawn up a couple of years ago:



Its not very big, but it should be nice when all the renovations are done.

[PAmedic]

Over on the VMI board they seemed convinced that they could return to the SoCon. They consider their move to the Big South a mistake and they are regretting it.

let me understand this- they are horrible, in an arguably weaker conference, but feel this "mistake" would be rectified by just waltzing back to the SoCon?

I think they should consider themselves lucky to not be banished to the A-SUN.

[Killn'emsoftly]

I heard from a former LU alum that currently works over there said the SoCon would take them back and also they have more in common with the SoCon schools such as academics and of course the Citadel.... VMI isn't the same academically as any of the other BSC schools, such as the other 7 are really easy to get into and will accepted anyone, jucos, partial qualifiers, etc.... facility wise there basketball arena is 3rd best behind LU & WU.

[PAmedic]

http://www.vmikeydets.com/article.asp?articleid=78890

VMI is making some much needed improvements to its stadium...

pics actually look nice- is this the game field or a practice facility?

1. lack of stands?
2. light standards are about 5 to 10 yards off the sidelines- don't get knocked outta bounds too far- yikes.

nice look though

[Sly Fox]

I heard from a former LU alum

Did this alum have a fat leg?



I believe the Keydets assumed they would slide into the Big South and immediately dominate in football. Things obviously haven't worked out the way they've planned. And outside of us, they don't feel like they fit with many other schools in the Big South. After all those years in the SoCon, they still have strong ties.

VMI originally had hoped to remain in the SoCon in everything outside of football and just join the Big South as an associate member for pigskin. But the SoCon told them it was all or nothing and they decided to give the Big South a try. That's how we would up in the same league. Personally, I'd love to the Keydets sticking around. But it is very possible they could head back toward our Southern friends.

[Libertine]

We'll all see for certain in 4 months or so but I talked to one of our support guys who took a trip up there two weeks ago. He told me that that the biggest improvement VMI was making to the stadium was to the parking lots. The rest of the place was more or less just getting a general superficial facelift.
Don't get me wrong, the parking situation up there has been abysmal and any improvement on that is a major plus but the majority of Keydet fans have been sucking on sour grapes for years now and I don't think this is going to change that.
Incidentally, today's VMI is not the VMI of decades past. At this point, VMI is a step down from The Citadel in every sense and the current class (or lack thereof) of the Corp of Keydets displays that. I don't believe that The Citadel would have bailed from the SoCon for the sake of "scheduling freedom" and I'm far more likely to give credence to a scenario involving VMI dropping to D3 than a move back to the SoCon.

[bigsmooth]

i just do not see VMI going back to the SoCon, though they do have some influence. VMI never thought they would dominate big south football. they got to the point that they were getting their heads bashed in weekly by their other SoCon opponents for years and they just wanted to be more competitive, which they are now. im sure a lot of older alumni are upset, b/c of not being familiar with big south schools, and the lack of big south football not having playoff credibility, but they are still playing william & mary, richmond, and The Citadel, the teams that will get them the biggest draw at the gate. they really should be happy where they are b/c jumping to the patriot would not be any better as far as being competitive.

[bigred]

I am usually strictly an observer on this site, but I felt that an opposing point of view was necessary after some of the posts I have read.

I am curious how Libertine comes up with the statement that "Incidentally, today's VMI is not the VMI of decades past. At this point, VMI is a step down from The Citadel in every sense and the current class (or lack thereof) of the Corp of Keydets displays that." Please eloborate if you can.

It is true that over the last 20+ years VMI's teams have not been what they were in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but much of that has been due to VMI's failure to compromise their principles or the integrity of the Institution while schools like UVA, VPI and now even schools like The Citadel will do just about anything for the sake of improving their revenue sports.

Other than sports, which is questionable at best, in what other ways would you say VMI is a "Step Down" from our brothers down in Charleston?

[bigsmooth]

hey bigred, i will not speak for libertine, but being that i used to be employed at VMI, and have seen first hand both VMI and The Citadel, i can say i would be honored to go to either school. a degree from either school gets you a pretty good job. the alumni of both schools take care of their own. hopefully LU will be that way one day as our alumni gets older. yes the citadel's athletics are better, but academically both are very strong. as fas as the corps, hey they are bad fans from ecery school. LU has had their share. now with location?? charleston is a no brainer!

[PAmedic]

welcome aboard BIG RED, good to have you here- thanks for stepping up and registering!

[Sly Fox]

Thanks for registering, BigRed. We enjoy having outside perspectives on the board. You've probably seen me bouncing into your place as well. Stick around and keep us posted on what is going down up 501.

[Libertine]

I'll be glad to answer, Red. My statement was an opinion, to some light degree based on my observation of the VMI Yahoo group, but mostly based on my own experiences and observations. I grew up around The Citadel and had a number of dealings w/ the cadets there and came away from them thoroughly impressed. The level of character that those young men displayed and the discipline with which they pursued their 'calling' was exemplary and something to model. When it came time for me to choose a university, I even applied to The Citadel and was accepted but ultimately, though I had a great respect for it, I knew the military option was not for me and I came to Liberty. I had always heard, growing up, that VMI was much the same in its institutions and was prepared to be impressed the Corp as well.
So, it was w/ shock that I met my first Keydet, home for the holidays and drunk off his keister by 1500. It was w/ shock that, at our game in Lexington in '02, I watched a mob of white-shirted Keydets run out of the stands after a touchdown, circle around the track and trash our sidelines midway through the 2nd quarter. It was w/ shock that I listened to VMI's superintendent get on the PA and announce at the start of the 4th quarter that "thanks to this record-breaking win" curfew for the evening would be lifted. At our place in '03, I watched Keydets taking cheap shot after cheap shot. On the final play, when the VMI receiver went out of bounds, he intentionally ran over a young lady helping a camera crew on the sidelines who had no chance whatsoever of defending herself (and I have videotape that shows it was a less than accidental collision). The team then physically trashed our visitor's locker room. In '04, more cheap shots. In '05 vs. Lehigh, I watched a Keydet defender intercept a pass and run it back for a crucial TD only to do a front-flip into the end zone and VMI missing the crucial extra-point. I believe the margin of loss on that was two points? During this time, I have also befriended an instructor at VMI, a person w/ experience at all levels of military command who regularly regaled me w/ stories of the confounding academic lassitude of the 3rd-year Keydets that they were required to educate.
On top of that, I think it says something that VMI bailed on the Southern Conference while The Citadel did not. Let's face facts: Coastal wants to be in the SoCon, not the Big South. So does Liberty. VMI actively pursued and achieved the reverse. That doesn't strike me as very Stonewall Jackson.
All of this leads me to a single conclusion: that the VMI experience was at one time something to be honored and envied, but no longer. One might see and hear of these things at other schools -- Appy, Coastal, Western Carolina, even LU. But, I never heard of it at The Citadel. Citadel men were above that. The very institution of The Citadel was above all that.

And VMI was supposed to be.

[bigsmooth]

you base what you say off a yahoo group, and the fact that some student-athletes take cheap shots and trash a locker-room. im not even gonna go into the stuff i have seen citadel athletes do. you are lumping an entire corps off the actions of some football players? how many times have people in lynchburg seen LU football players drunk?? quite a few times. i have seen that personally, and they were not acting with class. they left the SoCon because they were tired of not being competitive. im sure many alumni hate they left the SoCon. i personally hate it when people lump all LU students as tight-collar bible bumpers, or jerry's kids, a bad education...you know what i mean. if those people were around the campus and the LU students they would see different. so if you want to lump VMI, by the experiences you have seen with the football team, you go right ahead, but the drunk thing.......plenty of that going on with our LU athletes. not all of them, but some. just think that is a short- sided view.

[LUconn]

Well, to be fair, it's his opinion and he's based it off of quite a bit of interaction apparently:

1. years of football incidents
2. Some Keydets he's met
3. A VMI employee with many tales to tell.
4. His observance of them bailing on a conference
5. Alumni on the VMI yahoo users group

It's seems like he's pretty well backed up. Obviously you can disagree with him since you worked there yourself.

oh and who can forget the hazing photos.

[- Big Red -]

No doubt that Charleston is a no brainer...if VMI was in a town like Charleston I never would have graduated.

It really is too bad that Libertine has had this type of experience when coming into contact with people from The Institute. I have the ultimate respect for The Citadel men and women, but having come into contact with both in personal, military, professional and social circles, I must say that a VMI grad will always rise to the top.

Drunk by 1500...he must have gotten a late start.

As far as lifiting curfew, it isn't really curfew, it is restrictions, which means that those on confinement will actually be alllowed to leave Post for the weekend. It is a common occurence to lift restrictions for the Corps after a hard fought win. I would be surprised that a Sup would do this at the start of the 4th, but I will take your word for it...crazier things have happened. Heck, in recent years they have lifted restrictions for a hard fought loss...can you believe that? Rewarding the Corps for a loss....that would have never happened in the "Old Corps".

The front flip into the endzone was a bonehead move and there is no doubt that Keydet will regret that move for the rest of his life....and I am sure his Brother Rats will remind him of it at his 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc. etc. year reunions.

As for cheap shots, I have not seen them, and I was at those games...one could say the same thing about some of the late hits your players put down, but that is for the Zebras to decide.

As for academics, if a cadet has a "lassitude" as you say, then hopefully your instructor friend found a way to motivate them, if not hopefully he gave them an F....it is not uncommon for an instructor do give out Ds and Fs across the board to a Class Section...zero grade inflation at The Institute.

http://www.vmi.edu/show.asp?durki=6607
http://www.citadel.edu/pao/newsreleases ... _2006.html

Interesting numbers for both schools.

As for the move from the SoCon, not a smart move in my opinion, but the powers that were in place had a reason for it. They felt that schedule flexibility would allow us to play more games against what had been our "traditional" rivals. (i.e. Richmond, JMU, W&M) as well as some other flexibility (i.e. West Point). This would have never happened in the SoCon based on the number of teams in the conference. In hindsite (20/20 as always) I don't think the same decision would be made today, but it is what it is. One great thing about the move is that VMI will put a lot more butts in the visiting stands for games in Norfolk, Harrisonburg, Richmond, Lynchburg, and Williamsburg than they would for games in Boone, Davidson, Elon, Greenville, etc.

Anyway, it is interesting that you would use your limited, and I do mean limited, knowledge of the Institute to come to the conclusion that a few situations surrounding sporting events, conference affiliation, one instructor and one cadet defines the Institute as a whole and equates to an erosion of the VMI experience.

One only has to look at how VMI and the Citadel approached and acted on the admission and assimilation of women to the schools to see what school is and has prepared there cadets better.

Enough of this....lets get back to Football people!!

Thanks for the warm welcome to the board.

[Libertine]

I must emphasize that I did not come to my opinion about VMI lightly but I respect that Smoothie and Guest (I'm assuming it's Big Red) have good experiences with the I. I respect that they have a high opinion of the place. I, however, do not and for the litany of reasons outlined above. If you guys want to jump on my opinion for basing it on "limited" experience, then I would do the same for yours. I do not deny that my experience with VMI is limited. It is limited to my interactions with VMI and VMI personnel. So is yours. What more should we base our opinions on? All opinions on any topic, I included, are based on the relatively limited experience of the individual.

Smoothie, I don't think you read past the drunk comment and maybe you don't like it when people lump all alumni in w/ the hypocritical Bible-thumpers that do make up a portion of our student body -- past and present. Those people, however, are entitled to lump us all in because those Holy Rollers are the limit of their experience w/ LU. You and I may say they're wrong to believe what they do about us but it's not their fault that they believe it; it's our's for not showing them any differently.

Guest, you responded admirably, and if you are Big Red or are somehow connected to VMI, then my respect for that institution just slid up a millimeter and welcome to the board. Say hi to Payne. Tell him RTF sends his regards.

[bigsmooth]

Well put libertine. we can agree to disagree my friend. bigred/guest, again welcome and stop by anytime, esp when football starts, then we can get some good football smack going!

[PAmedic]

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

[Libertine]

Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
Kum ba yah, my Lord, kum ba yah!
O Lord, kum ba yah!

Come on, Medic. Is this not the smack section? Because if I'm not free to comment on the lack of pulchritude on the part Western Carolina's cheerleaders...well, then I'm just going to pack up and move to Russia!!!!

Just kidding.

Maybe.

Not really.

OK, yes, kidding.

Or not.

Maybe.

[PAmedic]

I don't know how many points you get for pulchritude but it should be a LOT.

at least more than for lassitude