[dfmitchell]

I am a family friend of an incoming freshman wrestler-his father and I were great friends in our younger, competitive years-and in case anyone who sees this may want to guess, I have not spoken to that young man or his dad since reading of wrestling at Liberty being dropped. I have seen local news, but that is all.

I was also a competitor in the years when Coach Castro was competing. He is still the class act he was then.

I am writing to express my complete and utter disappointment in Liberty and the Athletic Administration. Title IX and the compliance issue surrounding it have been on the front burner since the mid 80s. To act like they did not foresee the need to comply is to reveal incredible ignorance, or simply an excuse.

The timing is also suspect. Imagine being a young Christian wrestler, still on the rise, with great accomplishment and limitless horizons-being given a signed agreement, only to have the opportunity to compete snatched away-AFTER other scholarships from other institutions you have turned down have been given to others.

As to Liberty...anyone here ever hear of Grove City? For this institution, the answer could have been to simply not accept federal funds. History has shown that private funds will fill that gap.

Liberty has become just another big money D1 program. That's OK, and I do not doubt the Christian distinctions in mission and vision. But to claim the university, particularly the Athletic Department, is somehow exceptional, is to look through the biased lens of alumni. The reality is something has been lost-in many ways, Liberty is just like everyone else-and that is a shame.

[Kolzilla41]

Grove City also has 2,530 undergrad students and costs $22070 a year. Liberty has 28,836 students with a cost of $27660. Where would you find private funding for that many students?

[olldflame]

Amazing isn't it. 2 weeks ago LU was a special place where champions for Christ were being trained and I don't recall ANYONE suggesting in this forum or anywhere else that we should not accept Federal funding. Now we are no longer "special" and we are supposed to be following the lead of tiny Grove City College. What changed?

BTW, as a former Pittsburgh native I am familiar with Grove City. Nice little school, but not really special.

[L Fan]

Unfortunately, the virtues in the sport of wrestling are not appreciated by the AD. A southern sports mind set prevails and the old guard has passed on at Liberty. It is truly a new era and the loss of the wrestling team may be the inaugural mark. The AD, Jeff Barber, has not come out publicly with the exception of an interview by Jason Bryant that I know . He and Merideth the expert compliance officer, were taken to task in the interview. It was painful to listen too and may still be available for you to listen too on the mat website. The "incredible ignorance" you perceive was validated in my personal emails which Barber asked me not to share and I will honor his request. He stated he would engage himself with the forum but to date I have not seen him address publicly. Some of his lieutenants may be posting here and there and may engage you on this forum.

My son is a wrestler on the team and yes it is disappointing to see the AD's lack of performance result in the demise of Men's sport that espouses the best virtues of our faith and LU. I feel you are correct in your assumptions that Liberty is on a path to be just like everyone else. The current AD is reduced to seeing which way the wind blows,and the manifestations of not having vision have now begat a reality. Although generally he and staff seem like nice people. I believe they have been significantly outgrown and out paced by the success of the school which hails from something much larger than located at Lynchburg. Where there is no vision...bad things happen and this is short-sighted.

[L Fan]

Plus opting out of federal student funding does not make you exempt to Title IX.

All moot because not a dime has ever been withheld from a school over title 9 compliance. There really is no justifiable reason to have dropped the sport of wrestling. 80% of the schools are out of compliance. It's pure nonsense, having another agenda would be more plausible.

[alum82]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I heard last week that Grove City finally gave up on not accepting Title IV financial aid because they simply could no longer find enough private investors to make student loans to their students!

[Kolzilla41]

So once again L Fan, you suggesting that we should openly defy the law of the land. Unbelievable.

That's struck me kind of odd. So since no one has been punished by being out of compliance, we should do the same

[Purple Haize]

Again, all of this have been debated ad infinitum. People are blaming the administration for this 'debacle" but yet no one is blaming the wrestling backers. You know, the ones who promised to raise enough money to make the sport revenue neutral. The fact that the University 'covered' the expenses, waiting for the promised funds, has not been brought to light enough or given enough credit. The fact that the University, NOT the wrestling boosters, is footing the bill if the wrestlers chose to stay, has been give short thrift as well. Yep, those people at LU are really heartless. This administration is cleaning up a mess that they did not make.
Since it has been brought up time and agian: What is this secret "alterior motive"? What is so significant about the timing? I looked on Prison Planet.com but even Alex Jones is keeping mum!

[Aaron Bruce]

Again, all of this have been debated ad infinitum. People are blaming the administration for this 'debacle" but yet no one is blaming the wrestling backers. You know, the ones who promised to raise enough money to make the sport revenue neutral. The fact that the University 'covered' the expenses, waiting for the promised funds, has not been brought to light enough or given enough credit. The fact that the University, NOT the wrestling boosters, is footing the bill if the wrestlers chose to stay, has been give short thrift as well. Yep, those people at LU are really heartless. This administration is cleaning up a mess that they did not make.
Since it has been brought up time and agian: What is this secret "alterior motive"? What is so significant about the timing? I looked on Prison Planet.com but even Alex Jones is keeping mum!

Haize, PLEASE make up your mind. Was this a financial decision or Title IX? Both Barber and Jerry have said it was Tixle IX. You as well, in previous posts, have said that money was not the problem. Which is it? And, if it is money, who are you to suggest that you have more insight than Barber and Jerry? I believe it is time you let us know who you actually are. My name is Aaron Bruce, I am a '94 grad and live in Lexington.

[L Fan]

So once again L Fan, you suggesting that we should openly defy the law of the land. Unbelievable.

Simply, no

[L Fan]

Again, all of this have been debated ad infinitum. People are blaming the administration for this 'debacle" but yet no one is blaming the wrestling backers. You know, the ones who promised to raise enough money to make the sport revenue neutral. The fact that the University 'covered' the expenses, waiting for the promised funds, has not been brought to light enough or given enough credit. The fact that the University, NOT the wrestling boosters, is footing the bill if the wrestlers chose to stay, has been give short thrift as well. Yep, those people at LU are really heartless. This administration is cleaning up a mess that they did not make.
Since it has been brought up time and agian: What is this secret "alterior motive"? What is so significant about the timing? I looked on Prison Planet.com but even Alex Jones is keeping mum!

Haize, PLEASE make up your mind. Was this a financial decision or Title IX? Both Barber and Jerry have said it was Tixle IX. You as well, in previous posts, have said that money was not the problem. Which is it? And, if it is money, who are you to suggest that you have more insight than Barber and Jerry? I believe it is time you let us know who you actually are. My name is Aaron Bruce, I am a '94 grad and live in Lexington.

Amen! He is Purple Jello

[L Fan]

A southern sports mind set prevails.

This made me laugh. But seriously, one can hope this is true.

I thought the Big South Conference was the SEC!

Why would you hope that is true. There are no wrestling teams in the south. Only in the north do colleges have wrestling.

[jbock13]

I say this with true respect towards those who have been involved with LU Wrestling, and I understand their dissapointment.

But it all comes down to "that's my sport". I seriously doubt that any of these people would have shed any tears had the tennis or track team been cut. I sense that some would even disband multiple sports to save their beloved wrestling.

Its worth saying again that I have nothing against wrestling, and that I'm sad that this decision had to be made. But the whining is just getting incredibly annoying at this point. Every explanation given is not good enough, and apparently Chancellor Falwell and our AD hate wrestling. (sarcasm)

Please understand that I am not talking about those of you who have politely expressed your dissapointment. But to those of you who claim Liberty is terrible just because they cut your ONE sport, Grow up already.

Secondly, wrestling is no more a ministry than any other sports. Besides the fact nobody really thinks any sport is truly ministry.

[jbock13]

Again, all of this have been debated ad infinitum. People are blaming the administration for this 'debacle" but yet no one is blaming the wrestling backers. You know, the ones who promised to raise enough money to make the sport revenue neutral. The fact that the University 'covered' the expenses, waiting for the promised funds, has not been brought to light enough or given enough credit. The fact that the University, NOT the wrestling boosters, is footing the bill if the wrestlers chose to stay, has been give short thrift as well. Yep, those people at LU are really heartless. This administration is cleaning up a mess that they did not make.
Since it has been brought up time and agian: What is this secret "alterior motive"? What is so significant about the timing? I looked on Prison Planet.com but even Alex Jones is keeping mum!

Haize, PLEASE make up your mind. Was this a financial decision or Title IX? Both Barber and Jerry have said it was Tixle IX. You as well, in previous posts, have said that money was not the problem. Which is it? And, if it is money, who are you to suggest that you have more insight than Barber and Jerry? I believe it is time you let us know who you actually are. My name is Aaron Bruce, I am a '94 grad and live in Lexington.

Uh oh haize must be a secret member of the committee of 300 who control LU from a secret underground location...

[L Fan]

Again, all of this have been debated ad infinitum. People are blaming the administration for this 'debacle" but yet no one is blaming the wrestling backers. You know, the ones who promised to raise enough money to make the sport revenue neutral. The fact that the University 'covered' the expenses, waiting for the promised funds, has not been brought to light enough or given enough credit. The fact that the University, NOT the wrestling boosters, is footing the bill if the wrestlers chose to stay, has been give short thrift as well. Yep, those people at LU are really heartless. This administration is cleaning up a mess that they did not make.
Since it has been brought up time and agian: What is this secret "alterior motive"? What is so significant about the timing? I looked on Prison Planet.com but even Alex Jones is keeping mum!

Purple
If it isn't a debacle, what is it? In an instant 39 wrestlers, 4 coaches, supporters all under the bus. C'mon, put some sugar on it.

[L Fan]

I say this with true respect towards those who have been involved with LU Wrestling, and I understand their dissapointment.

But it all comes down to "that's my sport". I seriously doubt that any of these people would have shed any tears had the tennis or track team been cut. I sense that some would even disband multiple sports to save their beloved wrestling.

Its worth saying again that I have nothing against wrestling, and that I'm sad that this decision had to be made. But the whining is just getting incredibly annoying at this point. Every explanation given is not good enough, and apparently Chancellor Falwell and our AD hate wrestling. (sarcasm)

Please understand that I am not talking about those of you who have politely expressed your dissapointment. But to those of you who claim Liberty is terrible just because they cut your ONE sport, Grow up already.


Secondly, wrestling is no more a ministry than any other sports. Besides the fact nobody really thinks any sport is truly ministry.

Jbock13
Ministry defined- the spiritual work or service of any Christian or a group of Christians, esp. evangelism.
I' said Coach Castro's effort was a ministry, I'll stand by that. Is the sport of wrestling a ministry? No If I confused you, my apology to you.
I personally do not want to see any teams cut.

[Aaron Bruce]

wrestling is no more a ministry than any other sports. Besides the fact nobody really thinks any sport is truly ministry.

Are you serious? I am a bible believing Christian specifically because of Liberty wrestling. I personally led one of my wrestlers to Christ when I was coaching in college. I now operate a non-profit youth wrestling club that has the gospel of Jesus Christ as part of its mission.

[Schfourteenteen]

Sure ministry goes on in sports, but let's not confuse Liberty Baseball with the Liberty Godparent home.

[Purple Haize]

AARON - The answer, as I have stated is BOTH. It is Title IX AND financial. Not sure how I can simplify that anymore. I tried to explain why it was both, but apparently that confused you.

I did not even know they MADE purple Jell-O. I am more a fan of Knox blocks myself.

Who am I? My name is Bill. Bill D Berg. I like to host my friends at LEAST once a year at a place called "The Meadow". And yes, Col Sanders DOES put a chemical in his chicken that makes you crave it fortnightly. (This one is for you OLDFLAME!)

The point NO ONE is arguing, with exception of the wrestling backers, is that Sport CAN be used to further the gospel. The point of contention is whether or not wrestling is the best or the only one. I played overseas on missions trips in front of thousands a nite. Does that mean it was a better medium? Nope. People come to Christ for any variety of reasons. I celebrate those stories, regardless of how they come to pass. So I guess this is wher BOJOCK and I disagree!

[olldflame]

Ministry can and does go on in all aspects of life. It's called christians fulfilling the great comission. There is nothing intrinsically special about wrestling in that regard, and when people insist there is, I start to wonder where their priorities actually are.

For those who have chosen this forum as an outlet to vent your frustration over this decision; I hope you feel better. As far as actually persuading anyone or gaining sympathy for your cause, I think you need to be more careful and read what you typed as objectively as you can before clicking the post button.

When this was announced, I was disappointed, and had sympathy for the coaches, the wrestlers and their families. My perception of the wrestling community, which was based primarily on personal contact with Coach Bonhiem and several LU wrestlers (including Jesse Castro) whom I went to school with in the 70s, has pretty much done a 180 over the past 2 weeks. After reading a lot of the nonsense which has been posted here, I am now hoping with every fibre of my being that our leadership does not respond emotionally and cave in on this. If a LOGICAL AND REALISTIC solution which includes retaining wrestling can be found, that would be great. Personally, I don't see it.

[jbock13]

wrestling is no more a ministry than any other sports. Besides the fact nobody really thinks any sport is truly ministry.

Are you serious? I am a bible believing Christian specifically because of Liberty wrestling. I personally led one of my wrestlers to Christ when I was coaching in college. I now operate a non-profit youth wrestling club that has the gospel of Jesus Christ as part of its mission.

I'm glad to hear that. But can basketball be a ministry? Can football be a ministry? Or can only wrestling be a ministry? That's my point.

Also, I'm glad to hear that you operate a wrestling club for ministry. What I meant was at the colliegate level it's all about winning, not ministry.

[Dan P]

"What I meant was at the colliegate level it's all about winning, not ministry."

If you all think the Big South Conf is the goal for LU, then you are thinking wayyyyy too small. It appears LU is interested in getting into the ACC (or a similar level conference) in about 4-5 years.

Now .... which of our sports can currently compete in the ACC???? Maryland is the 2x ACC champs in wrestling (2010 and 2011). How would the football or basketball teams do vs the ACC champs?

(November 6, 2010)
Liberty 21, Maryland 17
125- Pat Strizki (MD) dec. Jonathan Childress, 4-1 (3-0)
133- Joe Pantaleo (LIB) dec. Joey Boone, 7-5 SV (3-3)
141- Seth Hicks (LIB) dec. Jon Kohler, 14-7 (3-6)
149- Scott Clymer (LIB) dec. Justin Cash, 6-2 (3-9)
157- Kyle John (MD) dec. Julian Colon, 11-4 (6-9)
165- Josh Asper (MD) fall over Eli Sanchez, 2:32 (12-9)
174- Mike Letts (MD) tech. fall over Royal Brettager II, 16-1 [2:33] (17-9)
184- Aaron Kelley (LIB) dec. Alex Pagnotta, 7-3 (17-12)
197- Aaron Thompson (LIB) dec. Christian Boley, 6-2 (17-15)
HWT- Josh Pelletier (LIB) inj. default Spencer Myers (17-21)

[Sly Fox]

And for the record, I think it needs restated that Coach Castro and his staff as well as all of the wrestlers involved (including signees last I heard) are being treated much better than I have seen in a quarter century of covering college sports when a sport is dropped. Coach Castro & his staff are being given a reassignment for next year in order for them to maintain their income while they pursue other opportunities. That is a severance package that most of us who have been through layoffs in the non-academic world find extremely generous. And the wrestlers will continue to have their scholarships honored if they choose to stay at Liberty instead of transferring to continue their wrestling careers. That is nowhere near a position that could be described as "throwing them under a bus".

I fully understand the passion of the wrestling community. It was that passion that led the school to add the sport when 99% of the LU community and the rest of the collegiate sports world was scratching our heads about why we would make such a move.

For the record, I actually enjoy wrestling. As a scrawny high school kid, it was one of my few athletic options. I recently called a wrestling tournament for Fox Sports Net that was carried nationwide. I was disappointed this day had to come as well. Frankly I was surprised we were able to make this happen for as long as we did.

I have a cousin by marriage who wrestled for Iowa and who is now a 2012 Olympic hopeful. It flat out sucks that Christian wrestlers don't have a flagship program anymore. But now is the time to take their Christian testimonies and influence their teammates & opponents wherever they call home.

[Purple Haize]

And for the record, I think it needs restated that Coach Castro and his staff as well as all of the wrestlers involved (including signees last I heard) are being treated much better than I have seen in a quarter century of covering college sports when a sport is dropped. Coach Castro & his staff are being given a reassignment for next year in order for them to maintain their income while they pursue other opportunities. That is a severance package that most of us who have been through layoffs in the non-academic world find extremely generous. And the wrestlers will continue to have their scholarships honored if they choose to stay at Liberty instead of transferring to continue their wrestling careers. That is nowhere near a position that could be described as "throwing them under a bus".

I fully understand the passion of the wrestling community. It was that passion that led the school to add the sport when 99% of the LU community and the rest of the collegiate sports world was scratching our heads about why we would make such a move.

For the record, I actually enjoy wrestling. As a scrawny high school kid, it was one of my few athletic options. I recently called a wrestling tournament for Fox Sports Net that was carried nationwide. I was disappointed this day had to come as well. Frankly I was surprised we were able to make this happen for as long as we did.

I have a cousin by marriage who wrestled for Iowa and who is now a 2012 Olympic hopeful. It flat out sucks that Christian wrestlers don't have a flagship program anymore. But now is the time to take their Christian testimonies and influence their teammates & opponents wherever they call home.

^^^^^^^Yeah. What he said!

[Aaron Bruce]

And for the record, I think it needs restated that Coach Castro and his staff as well as all of the wrestlers involved (including signees last I heard) are being treated much better than I have seen in a quarter century of covering college sports when a sport is dropped. Coach Castro & his staff are being given a reassignment for next year in order for them to maintain their income while they pursue other opportunities. That is a severance package that most of us who have been through layoffs in the non-academic world find extremely generous. And the wrestlers will continue to have their scholarships honored if they choose to stay at Liberty instead of transferring to continue their wrestling careers. That is nowhere near a position that could be described as "throwing them under a bus".

I fully understand the passion of the wrestling community. It was that passion that led the school to add the sport when 99% of the LU community and the rest of the collegiate sports world was scratching our heads about why we would make such a move.

For the record, I actually enjoy wrestling. As a scrawny high school kid, it was one of my few athletic options. I recently called a wrestling tournament for Fox Sports Net that was carried nationwide. I was disappointed this day had to come as well. Frankly I was surprised we were able to make this happen for as long as we did.

I have a cousin by marriage who wrestled for Iowa and who is now a 2012 Olympic hopeful. It flat out sucks that Christian wrestlers don't have a flagship program anymore. But now is the time to take their Christian testimonies and influence their teammates & opponents wherever they call home.

Well said Fox; seriously-very articulate and spoken with a gentle heart.

All I am trying to point out is that over the next 10-15 years you will need to continue to say this same speech to all of the men’s programs on this board except for Basketball, Football, and Baseball. There are obviously several people on this board that are “OK” with that and will continue to defend the decision each time it happens. But, it is my prayer that finally some of the more influential members of our beloved community will finally say, “enough is enough” this law is unconstitutional.

Despite what has been said on this board, these various men’s programs ARE ministries. There are piles of Christian men out in the “Field” that have been products of these programs. God knows (and I in no way am using this phrase in a blasphemous manner) our society desperately needs these male role models. Liberty has a great teacher’s college and many of these guys are going straight into the battle for our nation’s children.

It was mentioned earlier that the wrestlers would not care if it were another sport that was axed. They are partially correct – we probably would not be nearly as passionate. But, I bet we would at least speak our piece once because we would know it would only be a matter of time before we were finally canned. I cannot believe that the other men’s program supporters have not come on this board and at least expressed some reservations of Title IX. They will one day and will be looking for support, unfortunately all of the wrestling alumni will have taken, “their Christian testimonies and influence their teammates & opponents wherever they call home.” Even Haize is quoted as saying you have to either add women or drop men. Falwell and company have chosen the latter…who will be next? Death by a thousand cuts.

I bet Liberty can probably hold OCR to 1 program every 5 years-we’ll see.