[PeterParker]

Too bad they couldn't have lured Cheromei last year from VIC...which is NAIA

http://www.vic.edu/athletics/xcountry_men/roster.html

There must be several examples like this of guys at smaller schools that would make excellent transfers...anyone know what the transfer rule for XC/Track is from NAIA, or NCAA Div. 2&3 up to a Division 1 program? (Not that LU necessarily wants to make enemies by pillaging the ranks of the smaller schools programs...just that XC/Track is unique among NCAA Sports in that a D2 or 3 guy may be just as good or better than the majority of the first 1 or 2 runners for a lot of D1 teams...

[PAmedic]

Liberty Men's, Women's Cross Country Teams Both Regionally-Ranked

November 1, 2006
Lynchburg, Va.
Just days after the Liberty men’s and women’s cross country teams swept the Big South Championships for the first time since 1992, both squads were listed in this week’s United States Track and Field and Cross Country Coaches Association (USTFCCCA) Southeast Regional polls for the first time this season. The men’s team is rated sixth, while the women are 10th.

The Flames, coached by Brant Tolsma, have been ranked as high as fifth in the region this season. The team has been led by Josh McDougal (Jr., Peru, N.Y.), Jarvis Jelen (Jr., Sioux Falls, S.D.) and Jordan McDougal (R-So., Peru, N.Y.) all season, and those three athletes finished 1-2-3 at the Big South Championships. N.C. State, ranked eighth nationally, sits atop the regional rankings and 25th-ranked Virginia is listed second. Big South members Coastal Carolina (10th) and High Point (14th) are also regionally-ranked.

On the women’s side, the Lady Flames’ victory over Coastal Carolina at the Big South Championships boosted them into the top 10. The Chanticleers were ranked ninth in the region a week ago but fell out of this week’s ratings. Piper Newby (Jr., Hayden Lake, Idaho) has finished first for the Lady Flames in every meet this season, including the Big South Championships, where she came in third. She had previously set the school 6K record with a 21:31 at the Pre-Nationals. N.C. State, the No. 2 team in the nation, is ranked first in the Southeast region, while 14th-ranked Duke is second.

Liberty will meet all of its regional foes on Nov. 11 at the NCAA Division I Southeast Regional Championships. Louisville is hosting the meet at E.P. Tom Sawyer State Park. The women’s 6K race will begin at 11 a.m. and the men’s 10K race will follow at 12:15 p.m.


USTFCCCA Division I Men’s Cross Country Poll
Southeast Region
1) N.C. State
2) Virginia
3) William & Mary
4) Louisville
5) Duke
6) Liberty
7) Eastern Kentucky
8) Clemson
9) Virginia Tech
10) Coastal Carolina
11) James Madison
12) North Carolina
13) Wake Forest
14) High Point
15) Appalachian State

USTFCCCA Division I Women’s Cross Country Poll
Southeast Region
1) N.C. State
2) Duke
3) Virginia
4) Virginia Tech
5) William & Mary
6) North Carolina
7) Wake Forest
8) Appalachian State
9) Richmond
10) Liberty

[PAmedic]

how intimidating to the competetion is THIS picture:

Josh McDougal, Jarvis Jelen and Jordan McDougal

[01LUGrad]

We're ranked 6th??? Our ranking makes Rodney Dangerfield look like a popular guy.

On a related note, I don't put too much stock in rankings...especially cross country rankings. All courses are different and you really don't know what's going to happen until all of the points are tallied at the end of the meet.

[runningtuck]

The reason that they rank us 6th, is that they know we lack depth this year, which is true, our top 3 are great, but our 4 man is a freshman just learning the ropes to college running and our 5th man has been dealing with injuries, beyond that we only have one other healthy distance runner, since our 7 man at conference is a mid-distance runner that fills in in situations like this year where the team depth is an issue. It is unfortunate, because the team is much better than 6th, but injuries always factor into the ranking decisions, more than just due to course difficulties, etc...

[PeterParker]

Exactly why they need to be pounding the recruiting trail as we speak to shore up the depth issue for next fall and beyond, or the idea of capitalizing on the recruiting coup that was McDougal will have little to show for it into the future. They need to establish a running machine at LU like they have over at William & Mary. They have a huge team, nurture underdeveloped/undervalued talent in addition to the big signings and see the dividends payoff as the pool of competitive runners on the "B" side of the team grows which can challenge the 5, 6, 7 spots on the "A" side for inclusion to the Varsity Meets.

[runningtuck]

It is true, and since the year I was recruited in 4 years ago now, the freshmen classes for both the men and women have increased tremendously, this year the guys had 7 runners injured and unable to run, so that puts the team total to 13 runners rather than just the 6-7 that are competing. It is also hard to find good christian distance runners. top ranking runners who are also christian, are not easy to find, even with the mcdougals. I think that within the next 2-3 years liberty will have a good group of 14-18 runners on both the guys and girls sides so that there will be 2 teams just like the william and mary, the foundation is there now with essentially two distance coaches with the recent hiring of Coach Jimmerson. Programs are not built in a year or two, they take a long time. We are on the right track, we just need to be patient.

[01LUGrad]

Thanks for the insight, tuck...7 guys are injured? Wow. As a coach, if I have half of my team watching the meets, I start to wonder what I am doing wrong. Of course, that depends on the types of injuries (overuse injuries can be prevented if athletes are running within their limits-i.e. not trying to stay with Josh on every one of his 125 miles a week during the early season.) Not to knock the coaches, they are great people (I haven't met Jimmerson), but I would be looking over my workouts and making adjustments for the future based on the injuries that have occured this year.

[Josh McDougal]

Clint Jackson is the only contributing returner from last year (4th at conference in xc) who has been unable to compete this year due to injury. Our 5 man Drew Ponder has been struggling with some non running related health problems, which has hurt his performance some. Our 7 man James Doak has missed some training, and I'm not 100% sure on his status. I'm not sure where this report of 7 guys injured is coming from. There are no other guys on our team right now who are really injured. There are a few guys red shirting, but they are in no way close to being able to contribute to our varsity team. Even if everyone on our team was completely healthy, Clint would be the only guy capable of helping our team, everyone else would have to drop 3+ minutes to contribute to our score....
I'm a little baffled by our rankings as well, though rankings never really matter. For the record, our ranking has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of depth on our team past the top 5 or 6 spots. For example, if you were to have a JV race nation wide W&M would be right up there in the thick of it, and would probably even take down most of the top ranked schools in the country, yet they are not even nationally ranked right now. Depth means nothing if you don’t have the firepower up front to get the job done. Rankings really have nothing do with the depth of a team.
That said we really do need to get in some more guys who can hopefully make an impact on our team. I know we have a bunch of solid guys looking at us this year, far more than normal. At least 5-8 guys who could potentially make an impact for next year. I highly doubt we will get all of them, but if we could just get a few we will be fine. Right now we just need to land one big time recruit that will place solidly in our top 5 and we will be set for next year. There certainly is no shortage of top distance guys out there who are Christians. The person who said otherwise a few posts back clearly has no idea. Off the top of my head there were at least 6 guys (not including myself) who are professing believers who all placed top 20 at NCAA xc last year. Most of them ran for the national champs Wisconsin, and ALL of them are returning this year. We could literally see half of the top 20 at NCAA's be taken up by believers. The problem is obviously not a lack of top Christian/runners, but a lack of top Christian/runners who run for Liberty. A few years ago no one knew who Liberty was, now everyone knows who we are. I hope that the Xc/Track teams will be able to benefit from this recognition, and get some top recruits. I certainly expect our team to be stronger/deeper in 5-10 years from now, it would be a shame to see us backslide from where we are at now.

[Sly Fox]

Thanks for dropping by the board, Josh. You and Jordan have been the subject of plenty of discussion on here and your presence is appreciated.

Since you are here, how about giving us some insight into what expect in Louisville next weekend and then Nationals in Terre Haute. Who are your biggest challengers at both races and how do you see us doing collectively at Regionals?

[PAmedic]

A few years ago no one knew who Liberty was, now everyone knows who we are. I hope that the Xc/Track teams will be able to benefit from this recognition, and get some top recruits. I certainly expect our team to be stronger/deeper in 5-10 years from now, it would be a shame to see us backslide from where we are at now.

well said. Welcome to the board- we "old hags" are thrilled to see the progress in the Olympic Sports as well- incl the indoor track - great things are ahead for LU XC and T/F! congrats and keep up the great work- we're all proud of you guys

[PeterParker]

Welcome, Josh, and congrats on the stellar year (and collegiate career to date).

I know we have a bunch of solid guys looking at us this year, far more than normal. At least 5-8 guys who could potentially make an impact for next year.

Are these mainly possible high school recruits, or transfers from other collegiate programs? (also, pm 01LUGrad, he's got some contacts down in the Hampton Roads Region--he mentioned there was a runner from a Va Beach School who's worldview reflects LU's and has thrown down some great times in the state, but has not gotten any interest from LU)

I highly doubt we will get all of them, but if we could just get a few we will be fine. Right now we just need to land one big time recruit that will place solidly in our top 5 and we will be set for next year.

Is the recruiting staff looking at the hot areas? For instance, seems like there are a lot of talented runners down in Texas who hold a comparable worldview as LU (some are international) as well runners in the Northeast (PA, NY and MA)? What about the JMU development that they will be axing their Track/XC programs, any interest from their runners?

There certainly is no shortage of top distance guys out there who are Christians. The person who said otherwise a few posts back clearly has no idea.

I agree with you on this point, alot of guys who are distance guys have faith--probably due to the parallel of disciplined lifestyles that complement one another. BTW, have you been able to meet up with Josh Cox to train ( LU class of '98 ) who finished just outside of the top three for the last Olympic Marathon Trials? Read in that article that you are eyeing Marathons post-collegiate career...two possible LU runners in the mix for China 08 or the 2012 Games would be great to see.

Off the top of my head there were at least 6 guys (not including myself) who are professing believers who all placed top 20 at NCAA xc last year. Most of them ran for the national champs Wisconsin, and ALL of them are returning this year. We could literally see half of the top 20 at NCAA's be taken up by believers. The problem is obviously not a lack of top Christian/runners, but a lack of top Christian/runners who run for Liberty.

So, have you been able to use skills of persuasion to convince any of these guys over to your neck of the woods and to transfer to the 'ol LU? For high school recruiting, I would think that the opportunity to train with one of the top runners in the nation (TOP this year? All of us on here are pulling for you to scorch the Nationals this year) and train for a former leader of a National Championship team and running powerhouse (Stanford) would be a very great recruiting tool. A few years ago, LU had, in addition to Cox, the brother of Peter Githuka (then world record holder), Steven at the LU.

A few years ago no one knew who Liberty was, now everyone knows who we are. I hope that the Xc/Track teams will be able to benefit from this recognition, and get some top recruits. I certainly expect our team to be stronger/deeper in 5-10 years from now, it would be a shame to see us backslide from where we are at now.

I agree. It would be almost detrimental to the program, to have had this great brand recognition and not be able to use it as a catalyst to the upper echelons of the collegiate running scene.

Best of luck and godspeed at the Nationals. You and the team definitely have a ton of people pulling for the team...

[01LUGrad]

Josh, it was nice of you to swing by. You are BY FAR the most famous person to post on this board. [Cue the clip of Wayne and Garth's "we're not worthy" scene]

I don't expect a lot of posts from you (something tells me you have a REAL life- as opposed to the fake one we all live in), but anything you or your teammates could add to the discussions here would be great. Our prayers are with you guys as you complete this season and head into indoor.

[PAmedic]

Josh, it was nice of you to swing by. You are BY FAR the most famous person to post on this board.

you may wanna rethink that one if you ever find yourself having chest pain or trouble breathing.

then I'm thinking you're gonna be begging for the Medic

[SuperJon]

Josh, it was nice of you to swing by. You are BY FAR the most famous person to post on this board.

you may wanna rethink that one if you ever find yourself having chest pain or trouble breathing.

then I'm thinking you're gonna be begging for the Medic

Not when he's in Chesapeake and you're in Philly you idiot.

Take your medicine and go to sleep.

[PeterParker]

Medic, 01LUGrad could have used you a few years back on a training run out somewhere God knows where on the back side of "Liberty Mountain" and his run in with the animal kingdom. PM him for the funny EMS anecdote.

[Josh McDougal]

Next weekend will be a tough race. Jacob Korir of EKU is one of the best individual runners in the NCAA, he is always tough to beat. There will be a lot of other great runners in the field who could be up there, though Korir , and Magidi of Clemson are the two biggest names in the field I think. Team wise it will be an interesting race. The top 2 teams qualify individually, and then it will come down to at large points to see if anyone else makes it in. NC State should win easy, and after that the 2nd place battle will be mainly between UVA and Louiseville for the final auto. Both UVA and Louiseville have the at large points to qualify, no one else does. Though teams like us, W&M, Clemson, and Duke could be pushed in by beating either UVA or Louiseville ( as well as all the other underdog teams) I doubt that UVA or Louiseville have enough points to push more than 1 team in. It’s a long shot for those 4 teams, though it is possible if everything goes their way, and one of the big teams falters.
Predicting nationals would be like trying to predict the weather, so I’ll just say that there are a bunch of guys who could win. I’m certainly one of the top guys on everyone’s list, and I have as good a shot as anyone to win the whole thing. (At least that is what I think)

Ill try and briefly answer some of your questions Peter Parker.

1) All the guys are high school athletes, no transfers at this time. Id be glad to pass on to coach any info I get on this guy from VA beach, or any other up and coming athletes. Just hit me up at jhmcdougal@liberty.edu with any info you got. LU probably would have contacted this guy if we knew he was interested. Due to title 9 sports like track don’t get a lot of scholarship $, so track programs don’t recruit like football programs do. Its just the way the NCAA system works. I know many guys who are All American at nationals who don’t have full rides to the schools they are going to, while there are football players at their schools ridding the bench with full rides. Because of this our ability to recruit is severely limited. Unless you are a top national level guy we wont offer you a whole lot of $ right now. Lots of the guys I mentioned that are looking at us will more than likely have to walk on, or get a small amount of scholarship $ if there is any left over in the spring.

2) Yes we are looking at the “hot areas” and using all the contacts that we can to bring guys in. Our #4 man Josh Edmonds was a family friend of ours, and that had a lot to do with him coming here. Hopefully we will get a few more NY guys over the next few years.

3) No I have not tried to convince any of my friends to transfer here. They are quite content where they are. We don’t need any bad blood between any of our friendly rivals. Besides, all of these guys have plans for the future, and probably would not want to sit out a year, as I’m sure their coaches wouldn’t release them.

<><Josh

[PeterParker]

Ah, yes, very familiar with the walk-on gauntlet.

Thanks for taking the time to fill us in; I'm sure 01LUGrad will hit up the email trail with the leads he has...Best of Luck at Nationals.

[PeterParker]

After rummaging around the Stanford site, this is part of how they are able to underwrite such dominate XC teams and maintain a steady stream of high caliber talent, for any who are interested:

http://gostanford.cstv.com/giving/cross-country.html

They do this for all sports (I know LU has the FlameClub or something like that; once LU can raise enough to invest it to get the return on capital instead of using the capital for expenditures, that will be nice.)

http://gostanford.cstv.com/giving/football.html

Also, on an unrelated XC note, they have a nice section on replica gear and other Stanford gear on their site (perhaps LU should try to mimic the Stanford model in its rise to academic and athletic prowess, since Stanford is also a private institution that has to raise it's own capital to stay competitive among the publicly funded schools.)

http://store.fansonly.com/marketplace/s ... t_id=94948

[01LUGrad]

Breaking news...

-Josh finishes second, 17 seconds behind Eastern Kentucky's Korir.
-The team was 7th out of 32 teams.
-#'s 1-4 did well (2, 32, 38, 42), but #5 was a weak spot (123rd).

Hopefully Josh rebounds well and is ready to win his FIRST national championship a week from Monday!

[Sly Fox]

Josh lost to somebody before Nationals!?! That has never happened before. I hope he doesn't think its because he dropped by here this past week.

Seriously, if Josh is healthy today's results won't mean much in Terre Haute. He still will be among the favorites.

[PeterParker]

Perhaps he raced conservatively to simply qualify for nationals at this race because he'd rather leave a bit in the tank for recovery this week in order to be less fatigued at the race that counts for all of the marbles. If it were me, I'd rather come in second in the qaulifier and win what really counts--the National Meet. Perhaps this was his racing strategy...the public has just gotten used to him channeling "Pre" in his career races to date by wrestling the frontrunners for control of the race and tapping out all of his available physical, mental and internal resources to crush the courses to date. Here's to a McDougal National Championship, and congrats to the men's team on a much improved regional showing and solid performances. If they land the recruits that were alluded to in earlier posts, next year could be special for the Team Scoring/Standings.

[PAmedic]

good post.

great points- looking forward to seeing those results.

[Chris Lang]

We'll have a story on Josh and what happened at the SE regional running in Monday's fishwrap as a lead-in to the NCAA championships. I'll be up in Terre Haute Monday to cover the race, so look for some in-depth coverage in Tuesday's paper of Josh's day at nationals.

[bigsmooth]

it is good that cross country is getting some extra coverage. good job chris.