[BJWilliams]

If wrestling is allowed to maintain varsity status through all this wrangling and message board jockeying and meetings and the like, the supporters of wrestling need to step up and contribute just like they said they would when this process started a few years ago. If wrestling is kept and we are in this same position 5 MORE years from now, then the hard looks that have been put on the administration will need to be turned to where they should be, and that is to the people who didnt keep up their end of the deal...not the ones who did.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already but out of the 19 sports sponsored at Liberty, the wrestling team had the 5th most donations specifically earmarked for its sport. Although we certainly had goals to keep increasing, this is not a bad statistic seeing that the alumni were a bit “gun shy” about giving to a program that the AD now says he knew he was prob. going to drop for the last 5 years.

You know, wrestling was very instrumental in the early stages of Liberty’s athletic program. I know that being from the class of ’09, you probably never knew. The wrestling program, started by coach Bonhime, has had arguably the most success of any program thru the history of the school from the early days of NCCAA all the way to when we were dropped in ’94. Preseason ’93, we were ranked in the top-25 in the nation. Yes, that included schools like Iowa and Oklahoma. I am sure the Tolsma supporters will quickly put me to shame with his accomplishments – rightfully so, he has done a remarkably great job with that program. As someone who has competed on the level of some of our track stars, I truly understand what they have accomplished.

Since the wrestling program has such a rich history and tradition, why do you place so much heat on us alumni to raise 100% of our budget? Are you demanding the same of the other sports?

The other sports (soccer, tennis, baseball, golf, etc) weren't making assurances that theyd make enough in donations to make the sport revenue neutral. When the people wanting wrestling reinstated made that assurance, the burden of proof became greater for them as compared to the other sports. If soccer supporters made that promise, then Im sure that if they didnt make their end of the deal theyd be under the same level of scrutiny.

[L Fan]

If the wrestling team continues, they should definitely have some representation in the AD office it is apparent that the allegiances of the other sports enjoy representation. The AD office is not altruistic of all sports, only those who have representation. It is clear that not much thought went into the decision to cut wrestling because no one was there to champion their cause. Everyday it becomes more and more clear how much the wrestling team was undervalued. When was the last time another Liberty Program knocked off the ACC Champs in anything. What other team at Liberty competes consistently with high caliber Div 1 teams. I saw the soccer team had some competition, the Football teams big game is against NC State? I may be mistaken but the wrestling team is way out front in respect to consistent Div 1 competition and that was within 5 short years. One could only imagine where they would be in another 5. Jesse landed a top recruit who was swept away by No 1. Penn State after hearing the AD was dropping the wrestling program. If Liberty is going to go Big, it's not getting rid of the wrestling team it's getting rid of the AD. This AD does not have the vision and that is why we are in this problem and it will only get worse until more where-with-all is brought into that position. This is not a personal attack. It is what it is, a position that needs to be upgraded. What is Debbie Yow doing? or someone of her caliber. If your school is the 8th Largest in the country why are you consistently competing with less than competition. Where is the Vision that matches the Mission?

[Dan P]

To the supporters of the program ---

First off, thank you for numerous emails you have sent to me for encouragement! I have been in prayer for the program and for Jerry Jr. to have a change of heart. I believe there is still a good chance the program can be saved.

I will share this with you ------ while I have had disagreements with coach Castro in the past with regard to wrestling issues, I am forever grateful he has played such an influencial role in my son's spiritual development. Jesse uses wrestling as his platform to reach these young men to become champions for Christ. To coach Castro --- THANK YOU --- you have touched the lives of so many young men and they are better for it!

Now --- our ministry (those of us trying to save the program) is to continue to give Jesse the biggest platform we can so that he can continue to do his work. I pray we do not fail.
But even if the program does not return to the D-I status, I hope Jesse continues to use wrestling as a way to encourage the spiritual growth of these young men.

To - BJWillams- not sure what issues you may have faced recently that you alluded to, but I will be in prayer for you. You have been a voice of reason (for the most part) on this issue and I personally welcome your comments. With regard to the alum fund raising -- please see the notes from last Thursday's meeting we held with Jerry Jr. As Jeff Helgeson explained, 6 years ago the alums were asked to commit to $300K over a three period. They came back to Jerry Sr. and stated they would NOT be able to raise that type of money. But they said they would raise about 25k each year, and with the additional 31 FTEs (non-scholarship students) the wrestling team would bring in, the program would be financially viable. They (the alums / supporters) have held up their part of the bargin.
Remember --- the AD has stated the reason for dropping the program was NOT financially driven -- it was Title IX driven.
I have offered some very reasonable options for saving the wrestling program and acheiving the Title IX numbers the AD wants (doesn't NEED them to be compliant -- see Prong II, but he WANTS them). I pray "pride" does not get in the way of carrying out the options I presented.

[logic]

L Fan,


First, let me start by saying I support ALL athletics here at LU and hate to see us dropping programs. With that being said, you need to step outside your body and look closer at the facts.


1. Yes, we beat Maryland in a dual, but when it mattered they placed 18th at nationals and we tied for 65th with no points scored. Gardner-Webb beat us at nationals along with quite a few Division II schools. http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcaonline/teamstandings.pdf


2. Men's track was 13th last year at the outdoor meet. http://www.libertyflames.com/wwwadmin/g ... esults.htm


3. There are 70 some Division 1 wrestling programs give or take a few.
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/wre ... rships.htm

4. There are 278 Division I men's track programs give or take a few.
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/tra ... rships.htm

5. Golf is currently ranked 32nd in the country.
http://www.golfweekrankings.com/ellingt ... t.asp?t=mt

6. There are 280+ Division 1 golf programs.
http://www.ehow.com/i/#article_7754983

7. Bob Good - about as much "representation in the AD's office" you are going to get out of any sport, anywhere, at any level, as he is an assistant AD.
http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?PID=15177

I may be mistaken but the wrestling team is way out front in respect to consistent Div 1 competition and that was within 5 short years.

Yes, I am sorry but you are mistaken.

If Liberty is going to go Big, it's not getting rid of the wrestling team it's getting rid of the AD. This AD does not have the vision and that is why we are in this problem and it will only get worse until more where-with-all is brought into that position.

Vision...let me remind you of the vision - football winning BCS national titles. That is the vision. We now have, thanks to Jerry Jr, Jeff Barber, and Danny R. and co, a 20,000 seat football stadium and expansion plans for 70,000 NOT if, but more so WHEN we need them. The current expansion does not happen without Jeff Barber.

If your school is the 8th Largest in the country why are you consistently competing with less than competition. Where is the Vision that matches the Mission?

No, we are not the 8th largest school in the country - that is a talking point only. We have 12,000 kids here. The number of online students means little when talking about athletic success. We're growing, but still a mid-major school and you simply cannot compare us in football/basketball to ACC schools using online students as your rationale.



We all hate to see wrestling go but be honest with yourself, speak with more logic and less emotion.

[Dan P]

Logic-
Like you, I'd like to see all of the LU programs succeed. And, yes the LU track team does have some impressive accolades. The point LU Fan made is that there are less than a handful of sports (or even activities) in which LU can complete with the ACC and wrestling is certainly one of them.

Not sure of you have a wrestling background, but comparing the dual meet with Maryland and the NCAA tourney is like apples and oranges. There are numerous nuances between the two different events, that I could write a whole book on ---- point is, LU Wrestling beat the ACC champs. Which of our other sports have done so? Maybe track & Golf I don't know. I ask the question, because I really don't know.

As for the AD's office being represented at the NCAAs. Barber missed a golden opportunity to grow and improve as an AD. The NCAAs were held (for the first time in about 15 years) on the east coast, and he couldn't give up a day or two to see the LU kids compete in man's oldest and most demanding sport ?? Shame --- that is a real shame.

Finally --- the expansion of the footbally facility / program is a HUGE drain on finances and resources, and if the student body actually knew how much $$ that buildup is costing them, I doubt they would support it. Football at LU is NOT a money making activity whatsoever. Peal the onion and you'll see that between the (80?) football scholarships (which is money/ tuition the school is NOT getting - and being off-set by the other students' tuition), and the enormous logistical expense of the team (not to mention coach's salaries --- last I counted - 15 paid coaches for a roster of 90 athletes = 6 kids per coach). What other team has 1 paid coach per six kids? The program does NOT bring in more $$ than it’s costing.

Before you fall over yourself applauding this reckless build up of football, you might want to check out what the real costs are. All of the other kids on campus are paying for football. How about a $600 a year "Activity fee" ---- *(14000 students X $600 = $8.4Million)? The "activity fee" would be cut in half (or eliminated) if the administration didn't pay so much for football.

However, I do know why the Chancellor continues to permit the footbally build-up. It's how universities are judged by the mainstream media and society. The goal is to put LU on the same level as Notre Dame. The funny thing is ..... at least in my mind … I would never want to see LU become like ND. That would be a huge step backward.

[Sly Fox]

Please do not turn this into a football vs. wrestling discussion or you lose most of us. For the record, as an FCS school we utilize the maximum of 63 scholarships. When we eventually move up to FBS then we will be at 85.

And it is definitely apples to oranges to talk finances in regard to football. Universities build their identities to prospective students in large part based on the football & mens hoops experience. Liberty is obviously an exception to an extent based on our Christian identity. But you cannot downplay the significance of our attracting students based on our Saturday gameday experience at Williams Stadium. And that is why their is such a strong push for us to step up to the next level in football. It is all about exposure and as much as a love watching wrestling and appreciate the physical challenges of the sport, it doesn't significantly raise our profile on a broad national & international level. Of course the same can be said of all our non-revenue sports. But football & mens hoops are different beasts for better or worse.

[logic]

1. Beating an ACC school in anything, in any sport is an incredible accomplishment and one that any Liberty team should be proud of. We all should be proud of it. But let us not be too proud to look through with bias. Perhaps Maryland was peaking for ACC's / NCAA's and was pretty beat up for that match? Did they have people out with injuries? What is winning by injury default? That happened at heavyweight? Maybe they didn't have their best line up in as it was the first competition of the season? The point is when the lights were the brightest Maryland finished as a top 20 program and we did not. A great accomplishment to beat them yes, but for L Fan to hang that win on being "way out in front" of other men's sports here at LU is haughty at the least.
Looking at the results from nationals this year, Iowa beat Penn in a dual but do you think Iowa is hanging their hat on that one after placing third to Penn and Cornell?

2. Perhaps I was confused as to what L Fan meant by representation. I thought he meant a voice within athletics speaking good about the program.

3. I never said football makes money....we all know it does not. Re read my post. What I did say is the vision is for football to go FBS and win BCS national championships, and that my friend requires a "wreckless build up" if you're looking at it with your glass half empty. Football is the largest stage to bring Notre Dame style popularity to LU and in turn the gospel. Football is a light and can shine very bright with "W's" in the win column against major FBS opponents. If that is not your cup of tea Gardner-Webb has no plans of going FBS and "becoming like Notre Dame."

"The stadium expansion project is a natural step for Liberty in it's progression from a small Bible college to a major Christian University. That was the goal from the beginning...Notre Dame...Brigham Young....Athletics, and football in particular, were always a big part of that vision."

- Chancellor Falwell



Again we hate to see programs dropped but I respectfully disagree with L Fan and do believe his comments diminish the accomishments of other men's (and women's) programs here at LU.

[Purple Haize]

WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT TITLE 9 SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF.

Haize? You still out there?

Since you called me out..........

I have been away honing one of my crafts, which, as blwall can attest, deals intimately with gender equity. Fun was had by all!!

I will point out that you didn't necessarily misquote me, but you did attribute to me a quote I never made:

You know, one of Haze’s arguments for Title IX is the fact that he thinks the Federal government should mandate a privately donated weight room, specifically given to a private college’s football team from a private citizen, be equally shared by all

For the Umpteenth time you fail to differentiate between my comments on interscholastic v intercollegiate athletics.
As for Title IX, it is obvious that this is settled, for the most part, case law. Whether we like it or not is irrelevant. Do I like the concept behind Title IX legislation? Absolutely. Do I like all of the unintended consequences because of its implementation? No. I am no Statist, but, and you might want to take notes on this, when private remedies fail, where can a citizen turn BUT to the judiciary and the legislature? I wish that situations were such that there was no need 'back in the day' to implement this type of legislation but that was not the case. Now we have to deal with the consequences.

As for Pat Summitt, this goes back to my request to see your sources. Did any of them mention the fund raising she has done on behalf of the University that was not related to Athletics? Since I don't know the depth of your research, I can not say, however, I would wager they do not. For easier research, see how much money that Debbie Ryan helped raise for UVA. The numbers are impressive.

EVERY University and college charges a "Student Activity Fee". Some charge more than LU some charge less. While on the whole it can be seen as a sneaky way to raise money for athletics, it is not specific to LU.

L FAN - Your reference of Debbie Yow is SPOT on to some of the criticism the "wrestling backers" have faced on this board. YOU think she is a great AD because she "saved wrestling". The Men's basketball supporters think she is a HORRIBLE AD because of the recent search for a Men's Basektball coach. It is all a matter of perspective. (Personally, I like her)

Well I think that covers about all the bases. Enjoy the stirred pudding.

[Dan P]

Logic-

Where you at the LU/ MD dual meet? I was. I know wrestling and I assure you that MD put their best team on the mat -- and the LU wrestling team beat them. In fact, it was LU that was without a major starter (4X NCAA Qualifer, Chad Porter) - yet we still won. MD's heavywt was losing 3-0 when the injury default occurred. As the LU asst. coach told me BEFORE the match- "if this dual comes down to heavyweight, I like our chances -- a seasoned Sr (our guy) vs. a freshman (their guy)."

Bottom line -- (as you stated) it was a solid win and proved LU has at least one sport that can go toe-to-toe with the ACC champs.

My point on Notre Dame --- (and I have some personal experiences here). There is coruption - and some very "shady" things that happen in the name of "winning football games" at that place. I pray we do not hold them up as an example of what we want LU to be like.

[logic]

I hate to break it to you but that stuff happens everywhere, and Notre Dame as you suggest is no different. I suppose some things are better left under the rug rather than aired out in public. Let us not be so proud that we think we're perfect - I hear the football parties back in the 80's were something to be seen. As Duke stated I think we all would be extremely happy if LU were mentioned in the same breath as Notre Dame...no one is perfect.

[Dan P]

Please do not turn this into a football vs. wrestling discussion or you lose most of us. For the record, as an FCS school we utilize the maximum of 63 scholarships. When we eventually move up to FBS then we will be at 85.

And it is definitely apples to oranges to talk finances in regard to football. Universities build their identities to prospective students in large part based on the football & mens hoops experience. Liberty is obviously an exception to an extent based on our Christian identity. But you cannot downplay the significance of our attracting students based on our Saturday gameday experience at Williams Stadium. And that is why their is such a strong push for us to step up to the next level in football. It is all about exposure and as much as a love watching wrestling and appreciate the physical challenges of the sport, it doesn't significantly raise our profile on a broad national & international level. Of course the same can be said of all our non-revenue sports. But football & mens hoops are different beasts for better or worse.

Sly ---- I agree with you. I don't want to turn this into a football v wrestling thingy --- I know the value of having a well known and respected program. But ... I will say this ...
from my son's prosepctive -- his college choices came down to Virginia Tech and LU. On his official visit to both campus' - at LU he didn't go to a football game. At V-Tech, he did go to a football game (huge crowd) .... yet .... he chose LU over V-Tech. Football had zero to do with his choice. In fact, it is safe to say that , except for about 100 guys, football was a non-factor in just about all of the 14,000 students at LU.

I understand the exposure value, but at the end of the day -- most of the students could care less about football (sorry Coach R!). Ever notice what happens to the student section after half-time?? Ever think about what type of student turnout there would even be if the tickets weren't "free" to the students? I'll bet my next paycheck that the majority of LU students would rather have half of their "activity fee" (about $280) placed into their bank accounts than have "free" admission to Williams stadium.

Enough about football. They have their place, but so should Wrestling.

[jbock13]

"except for about 100 guys, football was a non-factor in just about all of the 14,000 students at LU."
Enough about football. They have their place, but so should Wrestling.

This is not true at all. Sure, a lot of kids go to the games only because their boyfriend is going, but they still want the team to win do they not?

Secondly, are football and wrestling the same thing in terms of popularity? It's obviously not, and once again you're proving my point that you're just mad because it's YOUR sport.

[Dan P]

Jbock said:

This is not true at all. Sure, a lot of kids go to the games only because their boyfriend is going, but they still want the team to win do they not?
Hate to be the one to break this to you, but no, the majority of students could care less who wins (unless, if by winning the overall tuition bill was lessened, then they would care).

Secondly, are football and wrestling the same thing in terms of popularity? It's obviously not, and once again you're proving my point that you're just mad because it's YOUR sport.
I'm angry (better word than "mad") that ANY sport would be dropped. But, yes, I'm doublely angry that it was man's oldest and greatest sport.

I've offered up a fair and equitable solution to LU's title IX issue. In retrospect, I just wish it could have been offered up in such a manner that it didn't threathen anyone's pride.

[jbock13]

[BJWilliams]

Unless youve individually spoken to the entire 14,000 person student body you cant really say that the "majority" of them feel that way...now you can say that a good number do, or a good number of the people youve talked to do, but you cant cast such wide reaching aspersions on the entirety of the student body unless youve actually been in contact with...the ENTIRE student body.

[flamehunter]

[jbock13]

Unless youve individually spoken to the entire 14,000 person student body you cant really say that the "majority" of them feel that way...now you can say that a good number do, or a good number of the people youve talked to do, but you cant cast such wide reaching aspersions on the entirety of the student body unless youve actually been in contact with...the ENTIRE student body.

Please don't take this personal, but that's almost being Captain Obvious right there...

[BJWilliams]

jbock...its not almost being Captain Obvious...it IS being Captain Obvious...but I have to be in this case because our rather disgruntled friend here is making an assumption on the whole using a premise based on a no doubt highly limited sample size due to his given context.

[L Fan]

I have been in OBX onvacation but just wanted to address LOGIC and ask what team started from scratch and in 5 years accomplished what Jesse has done on a limited budget. understand this in reality is the first real year in that it is the first graduating class of seniors. When your done with that consider all NCAA teams. I think you will agree he did an exceptional job.

My wife and I were eating diner the other night with a very successful Liberty alum and I told him about what happened with the wrestling team and he was profoundly dismayed. He said when he attended Liberty back in the 80's he said the wrestling team's success was what he was most proud of in that he and his buddies could go watch a real D1 team like UNC. Rather than watch the basketball team lose to Tennessee Temple or some other no name. He said "It was nice to call back home or discuss how Liberty had competed witha major Div 1team." Look what the wrestling team did for American and Lehigh. Liberty could easily be a wrestling power with the right vision.

Personally I had not followed women's basketball but the year they were in the sweet 16 I found myself trying to watch them. This AD is short-sighted he doesn't realize he was kicking a gift horse in the mouth by throwing the team under the title 9 bus.

Dan P is right with a fraction ofthe money Liberty could compete at a National level in a short amount of time. I agree do not compare to the football team it wouldn't be fair to them. I love Football and I do think coach Rocco is doing a great job, I actually get them on TV and try to watch them regularly. But gettingto the level of Notre Dame is a long hard row to hoe. Much easier for the wrestling team. Given the location of Liberty to PA, NJ, OH, VA and the wrestlers in the south that have no where to go.

And Dan P I think your plan to reduce the wrestling team numbers is a smart viable plan. Look at highly successful teams with small rosters like American and Boise State.

[Aaron Bruce]

I grew up 30 min. south of Notre Dame. In the late 90’s a VERY wealthy wrestling donor passed away. In his will, he gave enough money to the Notre Dame wrestling program to endow the program. The administration tried to convince his elderly widow to change the donation to the “general fund” of the athletic program (I can only assume this was in the infant stages of Title IX). When she wouldn’t relent, they dropped the program and then used the money for the general fund. (his will had a caveat that said the money could go elsewhere if there was no longer a wrestling program).

So, no, I also do not really want Liberty to be like Notre Dame. You suppose Liberty would do this to Tolsma since the wrestling program has already gotten the ax? Now, if we had a fully funded athletic program with a full gamut of Olympic opportunities for both male and female, then yes, I would LOVE to kick the crap out of Notre Dame – forget those jerks! (haha)

[Purple Haize]

(I can only assume this was in the infant stages of Title IX).

FYI:
Title IX was introduced in 1972. Signed into law in 1975. NCAA sued in 76. (Women competed athletically in the AIAW) Compliance was mandated by 1978.
1984 made the exception that Title IX did not pertain to ahtletics. 1988 saw that overturned over veto.
That is just off the top of my head. I may be off a year or two, but thought it would give historical context to your assumptions. Also, as for ND, one of the reasons Lou Holtz left was b/c the school changed admission policies and allowed fewer exceptions for athletes. Their football team hasn't been the same since. Of course, my personal feeling is that since they covered up "TouchDown Jesus" with their upper bowl they will never be National contenders in football again!!!

Also, more food for thought. In wrestling, there are 70 schools competing for talent. In basketball there are 346 teams competing for the best talent.

[Aaron Bruce]

I grew up 30 min. south of Notre Dame. In the late 90’s ...

Thanks Haize... I reread my post and realized I had my dates wrong. What Decade are we in now?? haha. It was the late 80's, not late 90's. so, your reference to the '88 date makes sense.

[Dan P]

BJ Williams / JBOCK --- actually, I would have only had to interview the majority of students (not all 14,000).
But -- yes, your point is well taken. My "poll" was unscientific and is based upon observation at the football games and conversations with some of the students at LU.

Aaron --- I have a very similar story coming out of South Bend, myself! I was born and raise in Michigan and we used to compete against ND in the early 80's (college wrestling). One of the most corrupt and under-handed insititutions in the U.S. THAT was exactly what I was alluding to when I said I hope LU doesn't hold ND up as the standard for Christian schools. (Yeah, I'm a former Catholic as well). Football or no football -- ND is NOT a place we want to copy.

LFan --- thanks! (PM me your email address so I can get you on our wrestling fans email distro list) --- Nearly all of the Big-10 and Big-12 schools conduct roster management EXACTLY as presented to the AD / Chancellor. I hope LU sees the wisdom in adopting that model for gaining prong I compliance.

[Sly Fox]

WARNING: Rabbit-Chasing!

The Notre Dame situation is a very interesting topic to me. Growing up in Big Ten country the prevailing sentiment in the '70s & the '80s was that Notre Dame would never be allowed in the Big Ten because of their reputation for rampant cheating with one academic & legal scandal after another. Of course, back then Notre Dame had a student body roughly half the size of our current residential enrollment. The idea that we would see a day like today when the Big Ten and other major conferences like the Big East & Big XII would be pursuing them sounded crazy.

And it is true that Lou Holtz was very vocal about the administration requiring athletes to meet same admission standards as rest of student body. And there is no denying the move initially impacted the football & basketball programs. But it is my understanding that some of those standards have been relaxed over the years.

One final note on the Golden Domers, the only league I can see them ever joining at this juncture if the Big XII. They could continue to rake in their own television revenue that wouldn't have to be shared while enjoying the benefits of BCS AQ conference membership.

[L Fan]

Here is a link to Jason Bryant's Dropped Project he is trying to research all the Wrestling Programs that have been dropped it is like a graveyard for wrestling programs. He is soliciting help in gathering information. I'm sure any help will be appreciated.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... y=CLXb3uAM