[SuperJon]

So now I am a "radical" wrestling supporter? Why does my defense of a good sport have to be radical? Are you telling me you are not ever passionate or zealous about anything in life? I suppose you go through life rather complacent about everything just so that you don't step over the line .... good for you.

Radical - a person who holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles; extremist.

I'm pretty sure you hold strong convictions or extreme principles regarding our wrestling program. The shoe fits. I never said it was a negative thing.

So now I'm an extremist, what's next a terrorist?

I simply am not buying, the knee jerk reaction to cut a men's sport period. If that makes me radical the threshold is pretty low here. Go eat some more cake

Wow. Yeah. You're past the point of being crazy and unable to have a discussion with. I'm bowing out of this one.

[PAmedic]

I'm curious to hear if there were any additional meetings regarding the topic and what the outcome of said hypothetical meetings may or may not have been?

* how's that for vague?

PS: this may be patently obvious, but: its not likely that anyone on polar opposite sides of this debate will convince the other. I would hope we could continue to at least maintain some respect, considering the emotional aspects in play.

rock on.

[Purple Haize]

I'm curious to hear if there were any additional meetings regarding the topic and what the outcome of said hypothetical meetings may or may not have been?

* how's that for vague?

PS: this may be patently obvious, but: its not likely that anyone on polar opposite sides of this debate will convince the other. I would hope we could continue to at least maintain some respect, considering the emotional aspects in play.

rock on.

Shut up you jerk! No one likes your "I Save Lives and am Better then you attitude". Ewww, Youre a MEDIC.wooow. What is that one step above Radar O Reily? Go to Geno's and have a couple WIT and leave us alone!! (OR you can mail me some, PM for my address!!) Or go see if you can get on an episode of Parking Wars!

LFAN As for my answer to Q1 - Whether it was the OCR or not that brought suit, the net affects are the same
Q2 Solution is a compliance dept that develops a relationship saying we don't want cut a men's sport, how can you help us satisfy your requirements and not cannibalize mens athletics.How in the world do you do that!?! There are only 2 ways to balance ANY spread sheet = Addition or Subtraction. That is it. If we want to stay in compliance we need to do one or the other. We can ADD women's sports, which would cost a ton of money or we can SUBTRACT sports. Unfortunately from your point of view, your sport didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

Q3 - Yes there was a time we were in compliance, or at least within an acceptable margin of error. Ask yourself if that was before or AFTER the resurrection of the wrestling team. Was it before or after implementation of Title IX?

And once again, where are YOUR solutions? Apparently, you think that by magically clicking your heels, holding your breath, ignoring federal mandates and firing the compliance department is the best option.

[PAmedic]

I say this in genuine curiosity: maybe someone can help me with this concept- I'm still struggling to wrap my head around it?

Is the position of the NCAA is as follows:

Assume the following-

5800* female students
4100* male students

(*numbers are hypothetical)

1. LU must create equal scholarships for females, even if the majority of females may not be interested in or qualified for said opportunities (ie: no interest in athletics, not DI caliber athletes)?
2. female programs that would otherwise NOT be funded ARE- due to above requirements (DI womens' underwater basket weaving)?
3. scholarship opportunities for qualified AND interested male participants in successful sports (DI wrestling) are cut to ensure #1 & #2 are funded?
4. the above is done in an effort to ensure "fairness"?

Is this done solely as a result of demographics? Or because FOOTBALL skews the numbers? If so, if the male/female ratio eventually shifts, could we lose DI womens basketball in order to re-instate wrestling, or even DI mens' fencing? And would that be "fair"?

I just cannot understand why, if the needs of the percentage of female athletes that ARE here are already being met, we need to cut funding to men- other than blatent social engineering by the NCAA/feds? Is the NCAA's position that our prospective female athletes' needs are NOT being met? Does EVERY female enrolling at LU need to be offered a DI scholarship in order to satisfy the requirement (ok, tongue-in-cheek there!)?

Having said all the above- I still love my school and will continue to support LU athletics.

Fire away

[PAmedic]

PS: HAIZE- Pat's is better. Actually, I like Napoli's in Frenchtown, NJ better.

free plug for them, there.

[Purple Haize]

Assume the following-

5800* female students
4100* male students

(*numbers are hypothetical)

1. LU must create equal scholarships for females, even if the majority of females may not be interested in or qualified for said opportunities (ie: no interest in athletics, not DI caliber athletes)?
Yes, as noted in the legal cases I posted earlier

2. female programs that would otherwise NOT be funded ARE- due to above requirements (DI womens' underwater basket weaving)?
Yes again, and for the same cited reasons

3. scholarship opportunities for qualified AND interested male participants in successful sports (DI wrestling) are cut to ensure #1 & #2 are funded?
Winner winner chicken dinner.

4. the above is done in an effort to ensure "fairness"?
You and I are heading to Vegas. You hit more in a row than Butler did last nite!
Is this done solely as a result of demographics? Or because FOOTBALL skews the numbers? If so, if the male/female ratio eventually shifts, could we lose DI womens basketball in order to re-instate wrestling, or even DI mens' fencing? And would that be "fair"?
That was actually one of the cases I posted. There have been MEN'S teams who have brought equal opportunity law suits to Title IX. They made similar arguments to yours. They were not successful

I just cannot understand why, if the needs of the percentage of female athletes that ARE here are already being met, we need to cut funding to men- other than blatent social engineering by the NCAA/feds? Is the NCAA's position that our prospective female athletes' needs are NOT being met? Does EVERY female enrolling at LU need to be offered a DI scholarship in order to satisfy the requirement (ok, tongue-in-cheek there!)?
This is where what is LEGAL and what is COMMON SENSE diverge. Again, there is case law where women's programs have said that they are OK being 'underrepresented" (ok just flashed to Austin Power "Help I'm being repressed"!) The courts said Nope.
On a smaller scale, take the UNC Women's Basketball team. When the "Dean Dome" was built they wanted to stay in Carmichael and have it as their own. The COMPLIANCE department did all the paperwork necessary for the NCAA and they were told NO, the women HAD to have EQUAL time in the DEAN DOME, even though they didn't want it. Again, common sense would dictate that the women had a great idea. They have their own facility, so pracitce time wouldn't be a problem with Title IX, they do draw smaller crowds which would get lost in the Dean Dome, but would ROCK in Carmichael. Carmichael had a TON of history. This was a win win for the University. But they were denied, although after extensive legal wrangling an accomodation was met.

[Purple Haize]

PS: HAIZE- Pat's is better. Actually, I like Napoli's in Frenchtown, NJ better.

free plug for them, there.

LOL Reminds me of a meeting we had by "The Waterfront" in Philly. For Lunch I took a cab to Pats/Geno's and got a half dozen of each and brought them back. The Big Cheese was from Philly and I didn't want to get him the wrong one!! Plus, I could dole out the rest to the proper butts who needed kissing! Never been to Napoli's. Probably b/c it is in FRENCHtown. Although I do enjoy their Fries, Bread, and kissing but not so much the dressing!!!!

[PAmedic]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. IT'S. NOT. SCHOLARSHIPS. IT. IS. PARTICIPATION. THAT. MATTERS.

please expound

and HAIZE: thx. I don't like the answer, but am glad I understand it. Insane, but at least I have the concept.

[Purple Haize]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. IT'S. NOT. SCHOLARSHIPS. IT. IS. PARTICIPATION. THAT. MATTERS.

please expound

and HAIZE: thx. I don't like the answer, but am glad I understand it. Insane, but at least I have the concept.

As i say several times during the season: "I don't write the rules, I just enforce em.!"
One of the solutions would be to CAP enrollment so that the Men/Women ration was solid at 50/50. Odds of that happening are slim to non, but at least that figure would give us a "known" and we can go from there!

[SuperJon]

What it means is that at some point in the future we will very likely see a decrease in the number of walk-ons that the football team is allowed to have, a decrease in the number of walk-ons the basketball team is allowed to have, etc.

[Purple Haize]

What it means is that at some point in the future we will very likely see a decrease in the number of walk-ons that the football team is allowed to have, a decrease in the number of walk-ons the basketball team is allowed to have, etc.

Someone must have taken SMGT 305

BYD -Let me see if I have you right: (Assuming 50/50 ratio in general enrollment)
We offer 100 scholarships for men
We offer 100 scholarships for women
All 100 scholarships for men are used
Only 60 of the available 100 for women are being used.
Therefore even though we offer the same amount of Scholarship Dollars, we are out of compliance b/c the participation ratio is 100/60?

[PAmedic]

One of the solutions would be to CAP enrollment so that the Men/Women ration was solid at 50/50. Odds of that happening are slim to non, but at least that figure would give us a "known" and we can go from there!

I had that thought but said "nah- way too easy"

that and we'd probably be accused of disciminatory acceptance practices

[4everfsu]

I have a question about male female ratio. Can a university count the online student in the study for NCAA complainces? Just a thought.

[L Fan]

One of the solutions would be to CAP enrollment so that the Men/Women ration was solid at 50/50. Odds of that happening are slim to non, but at least that figure would give us a "known" and we can go from there!

I had that thought but said "nah- way too easy"

that and we'd probably be accused of disciminatory acceptance practices

PAmedic I like your thinking you can't have it both ways.

Purple,
two letters GE, no taxes did they break the law or were they "skilled"

[BJWilliams]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. IT'S. NOT. SCHOLARSHIPS. IT. IS. PARTICIPATION. THAT. MATTERS.

Wow...who knew that someone would reference Zoolander in this discussion...

[Purple Haize]

L Fan - Your facts are a little off, but for sake of argument. They were skilled b/c they didn't break any laws.

[roccofan]

There's an old saying guys: "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still". The parents on this thread are not going to be reasoned with, you guys are going to burst a blood vessell if you keep trying.

Also, how did they know SuperJon likes cake so much?!

[L Fan]

L Fan - Your facts are a little off, but for sake of argument. They were skilled b/c they didn't break any laws.

Thank- you Basically, that is the center of what I've been saying. Can we either get "skilled" or find some people that are "skilled".

[jbock13]

Go eat some more cake

Tastycakes!!!

I understand PA Medic's involvement in the wrestling program and I much admire the way he has expressed his disapproval in a mature, respectful, admirable manor. He certainly has a right to be angry. However, as for some other people, who start conspiratorial nonsense, not so much.

[Purple Haize]

L Fan - Your facts are a little off, but for sake of argument. They were skilled b/c they didn't break any laws.

Thank- you Basically, that is the center of what I've been saying. Can we either get "skilled" or find some people that are "skilled".

Which is why the center of your argument is flawed. IF you are violating the law, it will catch up with you. GE is not breaking the law. You are equating "skilled" the same way Bernie Madoff was considered a "skilled" financial advisor

[L Fan]

L Fan - Your facts are a little off, but for sake of argument. They were skilled b/c they didn't break any laws.

Thank- you Basically, that is the center of what I've been saying. Can we either get "skilled" or find some people that are "skilled".

Which is why the center of your argument is flawed. IF you are violating the law, it will catch up with you. GE is not breaking the law. You are equating "skilled" the same way Bernie Madoff was considered a "skilled" financial advisor

Purple,

C'mon,

Go back and look at my posts never have I advocated for breaking the law and I would not. Why can't you accept a skilled compliance office could find a way to save the Wrestling team. Why is that so hard to accept?
You state I'm illogical or flawed but you say for "argument sake" I'm right. Why can't there be honest CPA's that do better than less skilled or less knowledgable CPA's. Why does it have to be your way or illegal?

[L Fan]

Go eat some more cake

Tastycakes!!!

I understand PA Medic's involvement in the wrestling program and I much admire the way he has expressed his disapproval in a mature, respectful, admirable manor. He certainly has a right to be angry. However, as for some other people, who start conspiratorial nonsense, not so much.

jbock13

Earlier in the thread someone was razzing me said I wanted my cake and eat it too, thats where the cake comment comes from. I took it as big boys having fun, debating is a blood sport in our family. If your offended by my comments I'm truly sorry. As I learn to civilianize I am learning to be more gentle, and less of a savage.(Fish are friends not food) I do view us all on the same team, and I sincerely believe the sport of wrestling is a great asset to Liberty University. Too many have poured their heart into this effort to let it go without a challenge. My heart breaks for Jesse, the coaches, team, and the supporters who truly understand and believe in their effort to give Liberty a wrestling team. That is why I persist, I'm not sure the AD truly understands what they are giving up. I do not want to see Liberty University diminished in anyway. That is something I am confident we all can agree. My hope is that Liberty is the largest University period with every sport possible.

Just curious how many here on the board have actually wrestled?
Purple were you a wrestler? others? if not I would invite you to do some research. not to sound like a cliché but it is the sport of all sports.

[BJWilliams]

I think the only actual wrestler among the regulars was PA (I'll let him confirm or deny that one). my only real exposure to wrestling was helping the wrestling team in prep school.

[thepostman]

there are gay people at Liberty?? who knew!!?? haha

[jbock13]

L fan, the tastycakes comments was from a different thread. Don't worry about it, I wasn't trying to attack you or anything, just me goofing around.

Also, my more serious comments about "conspiratorial nonsense" was not guided at you. It doesn't mean I still agree with much of what you've said, but no worries, you didn't offend me, nor were my comments directed at you. I'm pretty sure the person knows who they are. I should have clarified as my quot-age of you made it seem as though I was accusing you of what I was talking about. That was my fault.

I'm sure you've read my comments but to reiterate, I'm sad to see this day come for any of our sports, but it's a choice that had to made due to Government Policy.