[Chris Lang]

I don't think you all understand how far out of proportionality compliance Liberty is. Cutting wrestling was just the start of trying to get that ratio in order. Liberty is 52-48 female. Athletics is 59-41 male. That's a huge discrepancy. Even if the school chose to change its mind after making a very public announcement, who would want to come wrestle at a place where the sport has already been cut twice and is under constant threat to be disbanded?

It's not just as simple as building barns and stables for an equestrian team. There's the constant upkeep of the program, the financing. And then in three years, you have to do it again with another fringe women's sport. And none of these sports would be sanctioned by the school's current conference, meaning LU would have to find associate affiliation somewhere like it has with women's lacrosse and (eventually) field hockey. It IS about money, but it's about long-term money and making long-term business decisions with long-reaching financial implications. Remember a few years back when James Madison had to drop 10 sports? It was because JMU tried to keep in compliance with prong two and added women's sport after women's sport after women's sport and realized that they couldn't support it financially. That's the road that Liberty doesn't want to go down, from everybody I've talked to.

[Purple Haize]

I am curious if someone donated a farm with stables,riding rings, etc to LU would that help with getting an equestrian team established. If so would that help save the wrestling team?

I don't see why we cannot pray for someone's heart to be touched so that can happen. I know it is a long shot and people may laugh and roll their eyes. And some will say all is lost, don't even try.

Maybe, but I imagine the same things were said years ago when a shepherd boy stepped forward to battle a giant.


Just my 2 cents and prayers.

Or what is known as the "Third Stage of Grief" in some professional circles.
The ONLY way that wrestling will come back is that if A) Wrestling backers have on the table the money to make the sport at WORST economically neutral. and B) Have the money on the table to fully create, fund and sustain the women's sports that would be needed to not only OFFSET the wrestling programs Title IX hit BUT the women's sports that would put LU in COMPETE Title IX compliance.
Any Title IX law suit is going to take AT LEAST a decade to wind its way to the Supreme Court, and that is assuming they will even hear the case. So it would have not impact on this decision. (No restraining order would be uheld b/c the wrestlers are facing no immenent harm, their school IS being paid for) Could the case be fast tract? Yes. But do you really think this administration is going to willing to let the happen? Or the next one who would be seen as "Anti Women"? Even if Sarah Paling is our next president, it ain't gonna happen, b/c Title IX is part of the Civil Rights act. So not only would you be "anti-woman" you would be a racist.
There is political and legal reality and political and legal fantasy. Ask, which one am I living in?

[Purple Haize]

Have we had 103 posts in this forum EVER?

Not since Sgt Slaughter defeated the Iron Sheik.
The Jesse Ventura v Ivan "The Polish Power" Putski arm wrestling match also ellicited a number of responses.

[olldflame]

Wrestling is a really unique entity in collegiate sports. It's popularity is not broad, but it is EXTREMELY DEEP. It is in many ways the ultimate competition. 2 human beings of equal size go one on one to determine who is stronger, quicker, fitter, more skilled and more determined. The people in the wrestling "community" are an amazing group. The sport requires a degree of dedication probably unmatched by any sport. IMHO, that dedication and intensity sometimes elevates the sport into a quasi-religous status among some of the participants and their support group. It happens in other sports too, but I don't think to the same degree. I believe some of that is what we have read here on this thread.

Title IX is a numbers game. I can see why someone involved in wrestling would look at football and wonder why it is not threatened when it is the main reason the numbers don't line up. Objectively, the answer is easy (and I understand that the wrestling supporters are not objective.) It goes back to the comparison between broad support and deep support. No matter how intense and dedicated our wrestlers and their supporters are, we will never have 18,000 of them come to a venue in Lynchburg to see them. I plead guilty to not having attended an LU wrestling match in person since the restart of the program. Could someone shed some light on what attendance and atmosphere have been like at the home matches?

[L Fan]

What is needed is a two prong approach

LU athletics was never out of compliance, hopelessly headed there but not out of compliance. They chose to accelerate by changing prongs and cut wrestling. Solution: Do not change prongs keep wrestling, take a slow bake route demonstrating you intent to improve. The standard is adding a Women's sport every 5 years, many schools have been threatened but NONE have had their funding cut.

Prong 2 Mount a legal challenge a couple things are in play, everyone agrees the intent was never to destroy "opportunities" for men Exhibit A Mens wrestling. Secondly, personally I feel the solution will be found in redefining "opportunities". Men are different than women, it is what it is. Opportunities should be broadened to "Physical opportunities" for women such as dance, cheerleading or other interests women have. Why are we trying to use a law to discriminate against women. Not every women likes a sport, why do we want to restrict women to what our definition of athletics is. I think it's time to stop discriminating against women and misusing title 9. The court ruled cheerleading was not a sport. Change the definition why does it have to be a sport. I personally think in that case it was attacked wrongly. The truths is women should be treated equally. Is forsaking all women's physical opportunities fair. Would forcing men that like football to dance be fair. Sorry guys football has been deemed to barbaric your going to have to dance if you want a Physical opportunity in D1 athletics.
Bottom line The truth will set you free for to long the truth of title 9 has been a lie. Liberty should stop the carnage and fight the for truth. My argument may fail, feel free to develop your own. Just my thoughts.
Brad

[Purple Haize]

OLD - You hit the nail on the head. Wrestling is like the Howard Stern of athletics. There aren't as many 'fans' but the fans they have are dedicated and die hard! I attended a few matches early on and the enthusiasm was great.
What is getting lost is that, in the words of Michal Corleone, "Its not personal, its business". I know for a FACT that the majority of femaie college athletes are against the reduction of Men's sports to accomodate them. I would wager that if you asked the Volleyball/WBB/Softball/Soccer et al players they would say they would rather have wrestling stay. Unfortunately, we can't listen to them we have to listen to the government. We are paying for the mistakes of past generations who would claim that there wasn't enough money for ANY women's sports, yet still funnel ungodly resources into football. (I am talking to you SWAC, SEC, Big 12, Big 10)
For a great Musical analogy listen to "The Trees" by RUSH (who are in Greensboro tonite, but out of love and sacrifice to my wife I won't be going so I can watch the Final Four with her instead of Game 1 in G'boro followed by the concert.!)
I WISH we could keep wrestling. I WISH they weren't eliminating it at other schools. I LOVE wrestling. But, just like most things "They" didn't ask my opinion. (and YES, I do have a solution to the Title IX delima,)

[olldflame]

The common sense solution to gender equality in collegiate sports would be to recognize the elephant in the room and concede that football is a sport which is unique in the number of participants and money it requires and that there is not nor ever will be a female equivilant. They would not even have to exempt all football participants. Just figure out the average number of participants in all male sports and exempt everything above that for football.

The problem is, we are asking for common sense from a federal agency.

[ATrain]

The common sense solution to gender equality in collegiate sports would be to recognize the elephant in the room and concede that football is a sport which is unique in the number of participants and money it requires and that there is not nor ever will be a female equivilant. They would not even have to exempt all football participants. Just figure out the average number of participants in all male sports and exempt everything above that for football.

The problem is, we are asking for common sense from CONGRESS.

FTFY. It will, literally, take an act of Congress to reformulate the rules for Title IX.

[L Fan]

What is needed is a two prong approach

LU athletics was never out of compliance, hopelessly headed there but not out of compliance. They chose to accelerate by changing prongs and cut wrestling. Solution: Do not change prongs keep wrestling, take a slow bake route demonstrating you intent to improve. The standard is adding a Women's sport every 5 years, many schools have been threatened but NONE have had their funding cut.

Prong 2 Mount a legal challenge a couple things are in play, everyone agrees the intent was never to destroy "opportunities" for men Exhibit A Mens wrestling. Secondly, personally I feel the solution will be found in redefining "opportunities". Men are different than women, it is what it is. Opportunities should be broadened to "Physical opportunities" for women such as dance, cheerleading or other interests women have. Why are we trying to use a law to discriminate against women. Not every women likes a sport, why do we want to restrict women to what our definition of athletics is. I think it's time to stop discriminating against women and misusing title 9. The court ruled cheerleading was not a sport. Change the definition why does it have to be a sport. I personally think in that case it was attacked wrongly. The truths is women should be treated equally. Is forsaking all women's physical opportunities fair. Would forcing men that like football to dance be fair. Sorry guys football has been deemed to barbaric your going to have to dance if you want a Physical opportunity in D1 athletics.
Bottom line The truth will set you free for to long the truth of title 9 has been a lie. Liberty should stop the carnage and fight the for truth. My argument may fail, feel free to develop your own. Just my thoughts.
Brad

[jbock13]

The common sense solution to gender equality in collegiate sports would be to recognize the elephant in the room and concede that football is a sport which is unique in the number of participants and money it requires and that there is not nor ever will be a female equivilant. They would not even have to exempt all football participants. Just figure out the average number of participants in all male sports and exempt everything above that for football.

The problem is, we are asking for common sense from a federal agency.

Exactly. It's called QUOTAS. Humans are not individuals. They are mere statistical numbers.

[Purple Haize]

The common sense solution to gender equality in collegiate sports would be to recognize the elephant in the room and concede that football is a sport which is unique in the number of participants and money it requires and that there is not nor ever will be a female equivilant. They would not even have to exempt all football participants. Just figure out the average number of participants in all male sports and exempt everything above that for football.

The problem is, we are asking for common sense from a federal agency.

You are absolutely 180 degress wrong. It is BECAUSE of football that we find ourselves in the mess we are in. By leaving football 'exempt' is the wrong way to go. Football expenditures will then be the reason given when bugets are cut elsewhere. "We want a women's LAX team"!! "Yeah, would love to do that but we just dont' have the money. Pay no attention to the new indoor practice facility or the charter flights for our football team. Those are not luxuries they are necessities." Then the football coach can say "Hey we make most of the money, we shouldn't have to finance the Lady's Bowling team when we NEED to replace our 2 year old video editing equipment."
Next?

[PAmedic]

no surprise here, but I agree w/ LFAN.

I was thinking about the stats that LANG put up- the issue is the ASSUMPTION being made that male/female students view athletics similarly- CLEARLY they do NOT.

**** I DONT KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBERS/PERCENTAGES- BUT.... ****

MALE/FEMALE = 52/48

the error is made if one assumes that the PERCENTAGE of MALES attending that are interested in sports equals the PERCENTAGE of FEMALES attending that are interested in sports.

if you follow that logic - then NO, we will NEVER have enough womens' sports to offset the scholarship opportunities for men. But the logic is inherently flawed!

I would be willing to bet (again- I have NO data to support my position) that roughly 50% of all males are sports oriented, while females are likely closer to 30%. If THAT, or a SIMILAR ratio, would be applied to the matrix- we would probably be OVERFUNDED for women's athletics.

the proportions SHOULD be based on women INTERESTED, not physically enrolled. I would submit that the vast majority do not care about athletic participation- therefore creating a MUCH higher PERCENTAGE of opportunity for women that ARE than men that are.

not sure if any of that makes sense- but that's how I feel.

[Purple Haize]

no surprise here, but I agree w/ LFAN.

I was thinking about the stats that LANG put up- the issue is the ASSUMPTION being made that male/female students view athletics similarly- CLEARLY they do NOT.

**** I DONT KNOW THE ACTUAL NUMBERS/PERCENTAGES- BUT.... ****

MALE/FEMALE = 52/48

the error is made if one assumes that the PERCENTAGE of MALES attending that are interested in sports equals the PERCENTAGE of FEMALES attending that are interested in sports.

if you follow that logic - then NO, we will NEVER have enough womens' sports to offset the scholarship opportunities for men. But the logic is inherently flawed!

I would be willing to bet (again- I have NO data to support my position) that roughly 50% of all males are sports oriented, while females are likely closer to 30%. If THAT, or a SIMILAR ratio, would be applied to the matrix- we would probably be OVERFUNDED for women's athletics.

the proportions SHOULD be based on women INTERESTED, not physically enrolled. I would submit that the vast majority do not care about athletic participation- therefore creating a MUCH higher PERCENTAGE of opportunity for women that ARE than men that are.

not sure if any of that makes sense- but that's how I feel.

For starters LFAN is dead wrong about us being in compliance. We arent and never have been. For about a year or two we were pretty close though. So that argument is void. Also, if the courts already ruled that Cheerleading is not a sport, you can't just snap your fingers and say "Presto, it now IS a sport."
PAMEDIC - I'm just going to make a list!!
The purpose of the Civil Rights Act was to create a legal equality.
To say Men and Women are different is not going to happen.
It further makes no difference how men and women view college athletically.
There is no ERROR in thinking that the number of men interested in athletics is greater or lesser than women. Why? Because it does not matter under the law. There was even legal action to take that route.
Again, it alll goes back to the past. How do you monitor female interest in sports when those who would be in charge have shown blatant disregard for women's athletics in the past?
Now if the ratio of M/F students were reversed..........

PA You make the same points that alot of people make, and I agree with some of them. But the law is the law. What I find interesting is that people like L Fan seem to be saying either "Its a stupid rule so we shouldn't follow it" or "Let's just be scoff laws. I mean no one else is getting caught so why should we care until we get caught".
IMO, not until some of the BIG DOGS line Penn State etc are threatened with extinction will there be any move on the NCAA or the Courts part.

[PAmedic]

I believe this to be the definition of insanity:

The purpose of the Civil Rights Act was to create a legal equality.
To say Men and Women are different is not going to happen.

please tell me you are pointing out the view of Congress here- not your personal belief. If so, MrsHaize needs to sit you down and explain something...

It further makes no difference how men and women view college athletically.
There is no ERROR in thinking that the number of men interested in athletics is greater or lesser than women. Why? Because it does not matter under the law.

the law, then - is hopelessly flawed. This is the equivalent of the gov't marketing a product that 10% of the population wants, but insisting that every store stocks it (to the exclusion of products that 90% of the population wants, or be shut down.

Thinly veiled socialism, at best.

(not the best analogy but I have to go to work- may revise it later)

good debate.

[Hold My Own]

To Purple's last post: Yeh, the whole Liberty not being in compliance is a known issue and a real issue. This isnt made up by people with their heads in the sand only on message boards getting information. Like I also mentioned this has no reflection on our current administration or Athletic Department leaders because this one was a long time coming. Actually, if you want to start placing blame on people...I blame Purple Haize b/c he could have put a stop to this many years ago but did not stand firm with his feminin roots

PA: Politically speaking men and women are not different. Equal opportunity for both (or at least they hope one day). Same pay for equal positions, etc etc. Although I think everything you said to Purple was tongue in cheek and you understand this fact.

Side note: Women want "equal opportunity" but still expect men to hold the door open for them, open the car door for them and all the other things men are supposed to do for women....something I never have fully understood. How can you get both?

[Hold My Own]

I wonder if there are any Anti-Title IX (in theory) lobbyist's out there. This might be the best route to keep anyone from being branded a woman-hater or whatever else negative label could be placed.

Or starting a collation of schools/corporation's that have been directly affected by this or fear being effected by this in the near future. Then the general public would possibly sit back and think..."well, they cant all be women-haters."

[L Fan]

Purple Haize you seem to know a little to much about the LU Athletic Dept it feels a little shady.

If you listened to the interview that Jason Bryant did you will hear the LU AD admit LU took themselves out of compliance. I maybe dead wrong but I heard it from the horses mouth. He also confirmed it to me in writing but asked me not to share his correspondence, which I will not. This action did not have to happen the way it did. No one has given good reasoning as to why they dropped the program. My personal thought is that the wrestling team probably did not have representation in the AD office making them vulnerable. People have a tendency to take care of their own. Liberty wrestling was in the Eastern region now that Liberty is leaving that conference has to find a replacement team.

There was someone earlier saying he thought something sinister was going on, I tend not to believe in such, but I can see how he could connect the dots. I don't know but it seems Purple is tied to an agenda and that is pure speculation on my part. Not sure if you will ever see my post, I get a message every time I post telling me my post needs to be approved and then I see it later in the day.

I have three children attending Liberty, how they treat the team and coaches will greatly effect whether we continue, sometimes you have to vote with your feet. My hope is that they are the institution I believed they were and stand up for what is right. It just might be they have g---s* in the perimeter.
Brad

*EDIT: LFAN, I laughed hysterically but no way I could leave that in there! [PAmedic]

[Hold My Own]

Nothing "shady" with Purple Haize speaking knowledgable(what has the world come to...I'm defending him). His opinion is his opinion and is not in any way connected to Liberty University. So fear not! If he was posting as a university employee he wouldn't last long!!!!

As for nobody offering a good reason as to why it was dropped...I'm not sure what else can be said if a direct response from the Chancellor and others that are directly involved isn't good enough. Hope the answers come for those that are still confused about the decision.

Stay classy San Diego. Good night

[PAmedic]

LFAN, the delay in your posts is standard with all new users and will go away when you reach a specified post count. Thanks for your input and stick around! Also, I'd encourage your kids to stay- LU is a great place, though many of us are beyond disappointed with this decision.

[Purple Haize]

HMO defending me? What next? Dogs and cats sleeping together? Duke and Carolina fans living harmoniously under one roof..oh wait
LFAN I am not a member of the University. Several people know me on the board and you can take their word that I am not a member of the university. Although, you can feel free to read more deeply into HMO's Smiley posts and you will get an idea.
To specifically address your point about a good reason why Wrestling was dropped:
1) Federal Requirement
2) Money
IF those aren't specific reasons enough....I got nothing
As to why it was started in the first place, promises were made to the University that were not kept. The University acted based upon those promises. I might add over the strenuous objection of many in the Athletic Department for the reasons that are playing out here. Although the feared DOJ investigation has yet to materialize.
(Ok just had A Few Good Men flashback "You honor I object" "Overrulled" I Strenuously Object" "Oh you strenuously object...well that changes everything)
Again while the current adminstration bears some guilt, IMO the bulk of the guilt lays firmly on those who made promises they could not keep.
Whether your kids stay at Liberty or not could be an opportunity for a life lesson. Do you just take your ball and go home? If the ONLY reason you sent your children to LU was BECAUSE of wrestling, then you might want to re evaluate. (Wow, I just sounded like I took that from the RG play book of interpersonal interaction!!) Let's just say, I hope your kids stay.

[L Fan]

Purple,

What is your connection that you know promises were not kept?

Two of my kids that attend are girls, It wouldn't make sense for them to leave because of wrestling directly. It would be about caving in on principle and the treatment of people. I'm just saying how this plays out will demonstrate a lot. I do think Liberty is a special place for my kids to get an education. I just don't want my kids to see a transvestite looking like Mel Gibson in Braveheart swinging a field hockey stick at Liberty yelling FREEDOM because the LU/AD concurs with title 9.

For me it's about standing up for right and wrong, if someone didn't stand up, blacks would still be riding in the back of the bus. I do think Liberty is the place where people want to stand up and be counted for what is right. Is that changing, I don't know, right now their sitting down.

Brad

[PAmedic]

LFAN check your private messages...

[Purple Haize]

LFAN check your private messages...

Did you "Out Me"? I guess the closet isn't big enough for the both of us!!

LFAN - So you are disparaging Field Hockey players now? Again, your anger and frustration are misplaced. Let's say LU actaully dropped Field Hockey. How would THOSE athletes feel? Would you have us save wrestling at the expense of some other team? To which I am sure your reply would be Let's keep them all. Again this is not possible. It is not a matter of the AD 'concuring' with Title IX, it is a matter of 'complying' with Title IX.
Think of it like taxes. What are the odds that you actaully will get audited? Do you know people who cheat on their taxes? Are there 'triggers' that can institute an IRS audit? I don't "concur' with the amount of taxes that I have to pay. I know people who cheat and get away with it. But that does not affect my COMPLIANCE with the laws.
As for my knowledge of the promises that were not met, I suggest you re read the Chancellor's post. He mentions that.

[L Fan]

Purple,
HAHA so your related to the inside source? good for you.
No I love FH, my youngest plays but I don't know if she would consider LU now that they only do temp teams. Right, complying with title 9 may some day include Mel Gibson scenario I wrote about.
Again they were in compliance chose to take themselves out this is a fact.

[Purple Haize]

Purple,
HAHA so your related to the inside source? good for you.
No I love FH, my youngest plays but I don't know if she would consider LU now that they only do temp teams. Right, complying with title 9 may some day include Mel Gibson scenario I wrote about.
Again they were in compliance chose to take themselves out this is a fact.

You are wrong on both counts. Glad your daughter plays FH, not sure she would appeciate being compared to Braveheart, but what do I knnow!
1) I am not related to anyone in the LU athletic department. However, I am VERY CLOSE to the source I mention. In fact, I don't think it would be possible to be more related!
2) When has LU ever been in compliance with Title IX? If you are saying that they were in compliance PRIOR to restarting the wrestling team, then wouldn't it make sense that they would be out of compliance once they started wrestling? And if they are STILL out of compliance wouldn't it make sense to rid yourself of the thing that made you out of compliance? Do some research on Title IX requirements and compare them to the LU Athletic Department prior to restarting wrestling and today. Add to this the new "directive" that "Prong 2" is no longer acceptable, well you don't have to be named Belshazzar to read the writing on the wall!


*I will say that at one point we were "within the margin of error", and part of that was due to the our proposed addition of other women's sports.