Here is the place for all other LU sponsored sports. Come here to post about: Men's/Women's Cross Country, Men's Golf, Men's/Women's Soccer, Men's/Women's Tennis, Men's/Women's Track & Field, Women's Lacrosse, Women's Swimming & Dive, Women's Volleyball

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By 47/5-2
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#585821
Here is what I will tell you Purple... and this is as unbiased as I can possibly be. I come from the era of Liberty where the ink in the pen was almost always red. I remember we would scrap together the money to pay our tuition early because they would give a pretty significant discount if you paid early (because the money was that tight). When you sat in convocation and wondered if our status was going to be renewed. by sacs or whatever it was called. When I honestly am not even sure that our president at that time was Christian but we needed to keep the doors open. I also come from an era that saw his business venture and contract with Liberty terminated (because it had a clause that they promised they would never use but had to be in every contract) because they could turn a quick million or two by terminating. To say things like that impact your experience is an understatement. Literally, the other person involved had his life turned upside down. Marriage destroyed. Faith shaken. Etc... not because of anything he did wrong, but because a university used him and abused him. Sure, you can say that your faith should be stronger etc. But you are talking about people that were in a position of respect over basically college students/recent alumni. Welcome to the world where the university you just invested in will be the very first people to take advantage of you. My perspective was a little different. Oh, I hated administration... but I had gained life long friends, had an amazing 4 years socially, and learned quite a bit (of course, 95% of that was outside of the classroom). I married and stayed in the Burg for a few years. Bought a house, had my first two kids there, before getting an offer I couldn't refuse to relocate. Since going back it is obviously not the same place as what I attended (and most likely you). Some is good... some is probably not for the better. When I do go back there doesn't seem to be the same spirit amongst the student body. Maybe it's just me. It's almost too nice if that's possible. Either way, the most difficult part of being alumni became Jr. He lives in his Burg bubble while the rest of us live outside. There are many overall thoughts that I agree with him on... but he seasons his words with CaJohns Mongoose. Needless to say, I was really torn if I even wanted to encourage my kids to attend. I hadn't given up on the school. It was still my alma mater... I cheered fanatically as Richie's boys marched into the tourney. My oldest has always wanted to follow in his parents footsteps. He was born in Lynchburg, wanted (craved) a Christian school, and absolutely loved Alder. I tried to steer him away... I tried to get him to seriously consider other options... But that is where he wanted to be. The coaching change occurred and it was the first time that I think he really thought, "I may have to consider other options". Here is the reality... if you always wanted to go to Penn State growing up... There are several other schools out there that are compatible. If you always wanted to go to Liberty... that compatible list is almost non-existent. This is where my 3rd strike comes in for Liberty. Before you think... well, "he probably isn't good enough for Liberty" that just isn't the case. This is a kid who turned down ACC offers because he was convinced Liberty would come thru. This is a kid who is first team all state as a junior... and will be again as a senior. This is a kid who knows what the top level talent is because he has seen his brother play in one of the top 5 academies in the country for the last 4 years. This is a kid with teammates now at top programs around the country. This is a kid that literally fielded calls from coaches up and down the spectrum of top 25 programs to schools in the ASun, Big South, SunBelt, perennial national champions etc. turning all of them down, because of Liberty. I can also tell you, from this end. No program treated him worse during the whole process then Liberty. NONE. Not even close. Trust me... Liberty was middle of the road in terms of quality of program. No one treated him worse then the staff at Liberty. In the end, he decided to commit to another program. A program that quite honestly is light years ahead of Liberty. There is a kid in our car pool who is going to play at JMU if he does not turn pro. He asked about where our oldest was going to play next year and we told him the story. We told him how his first choice was Liberty. His immediate response... "Why would he want to go there? He is in a much better place where he is going. The quality of the program at Liberty is poor, I wouldn't have even considered them." There is a common theme amongst all successful programs in collegiate soccer. It is certainly present at the program my oldest ultimately choose. But trust me, we didn't need to actually go and look up the records of the coaches who were calling. We knew if their programs were successful based on how they interacted with their potential recruits. What we saw with Liberty matched up with other poor programs (this was true both before and after the change). I would tell you that I hope that isn't the ultimate result this time. But I'm personally so angry with the program I admittedly am rooting against it... but it also matches what other connections outside of Liberty told me when they heard who was chosen. I hoped they were wrong... but the career record (one successful class that overcame the odds at Davidson) and my personal experience tells me they were right. Again, I admit... a lot of frustration on my end coming out. But you can put up with a lot of crap when it happens to you personally... but your kids are different. Of course, many college coaches start to become much better coaches and recruiters once their kids come of age. Problem for Findley is... he isn't learning in that process. He is simply bringing them to Liberty.
Last edited by 47/5-2 on October 9th, 2019, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
By ALUmnus
Posts
#585822
First of all, thanks for talking about soccer! It's crazy how ignored this program is.

Second, paragraphs are your friend...and ours.

Third, I kinda get what you're saying, but kinda have no clue. It would be great if you would actually say what you want to say. That was a really long post and I wanted it to mean something, but I still don't understand what the problem is. If your son has moved on from considering Liberty (great choice!), why the need for secrecy and ambiguity? Come out and say it so people can have a more serious conversation. And please don't read me as being nasty or talking down to you, I really would like to see this discussed.
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By Purple Haize
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#585823
Thank you for a very long detailed response. There is a lot to unpack there. You reference a comment by a kid in your carpool that LU has a poor soccer program and you seem to blame Kelly for that. I ask you how long has he been here? Did your carpool participant just come to that conclusion? Or was it years in the making ? I’m not sure what the root problems were. I love Alder, one of my all time favorite people, but he was battling the same forces you discussed at the start of your post.
I don’t know what the story is behind the recruitment of, what I can only think is your son. But it seems like neither staff paid much interest. All I can say is that happens. It doesn’t mean that he isn’t a very talented player. It might just mean he’s not a good fit. This type of thing is not unique to LU Soccer it happens all the time in other sports. Look at some of the LU basketball and football threads. I was not really recruited by a school I knew I was talented enough to play at and I was bitter. But I came to realize that not going there was the best thing for me. I wouldn’t have fit the system or worked well with the Coaches style. It would have been a disaster. I know I became a better player and person for not going there. Ironically the coach who didn’t recruit me became a mentor of mine and even tried to hire me at one point.
Does it hurt and does it sting? Yeah. I’m sorry you’re bitter. I’m sorry you’re actively rooting against LU. I hope you and your son have an outstanding career wherever he decides to attend
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By 47/5-2
Posts
#585826
Purple -

1. That perception is obviously not all Kelly's fault... my point is, he isn't doing things different to change it. Culture is huge in soccer. Yes, it's huge in every sport. But soccer (much like football) the culture of your program can drastically impact actual results. It may be hard to quantify it... or even explain it... but like I said before, you knew the success level of the program on the field by the interaction from coaching staff to recruit. Regardless of what level the school was. Look at the track record? It looks a lot like Rick Reeves. Rick Reeves was the benefactor of forces aligning. The success he had at Liberty (which he has propelled to continue a mediocre coaching career) was an anomaly.
2. I think in this particular kids case... he also knows a few players on the team (and subsequently their level). He isn't thinking of any spiritual benefits to going to the university... but it's interesting to know the instant reaction of what is a top recruit nationally.
3. I love Jeff. He is genuine. But that doesn't mean your method's or ways aren't holding you back in bringing in talent.
4. Yes, you are completely correct that things most likely will end up the better (I actually don't doubt that) but if I punched you in the face randomly one day, and that sent you to the hospital where you met the Mrs. Purple... well you may look back and say thank God that guy punched me in the face. But I would still have anger management issues despite God using my short fuse to introduce you to a great gal. My point is, successful schools have a way of working the process differently. It's more respectful of the student athlete and the process is more holistic (may not be the best word).
5. I'm not bitter that he won't play at Liberty... that is fine. The bitterness is how the staff handled it. That... yes, I fault Kelly, fully. I don't believe it is unique. I do believe this is exactly why his programs have never had sustained success. How you treat people matters. How you treat people that you have deemed aren't going to do anything for you??? That matters even more. That is where the bitterness lies. It's the final straw for someone who supported Liberty thru thick and thin. There really aren't many of us out here that are truly proud at this point in Liberty as an institution. Honestly, there are very few. This process cost them another one...
6. Alumnus - Sorry, I did not bother so much with proper punctuation. Quite honestly, no one discusses Liberty Soccer (again... culture creation) and I believed only Purple was really following the post and we have gone back and forth a bit. So you jumped in at a spot that probably didn't make much sense for you. My apologies.
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585827
Purple -
7. Sorry, I sort of skipped over your, "neither staff paid much attention"... Quite contrary. Former... and those that remained paid attention. They drug him right along.
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By Purple Haize
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#585831
If you punched me in the face, or at least tried, I’d drop you. Whether I subsequently met Mrs Purple is irrelevant I get that you are bitter that Kelly ain’t apparently recruit your son. But that’s life. You’ve apparently judged the entire program by that decision, some teenager in a car pool and heresay from players currently on the team who may be disgruntled. There is nothing in your story that is unique in the World of college athletics. I can’t judge the interaction between your son and Kelly because I was not privy to them. I know his personality is different from Jeff. But so what?
I’m rooting for the guy and I think he will get it done. He’s had success and learning experiences elsewhere and made it to the top of a thick stack of applicants. I also hope your kid goes on to do well also. Again, I’m sorry you’re bitter.

I have no idea what you mean by “drug him along”. You’ve used that or a variation a couple of times.
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585847
Dude, no need to go 0 to 60 in two posts. The "punch in the face" was what they call an "analogy". It was also pretty clear it was in jest. If you notice it was an act painting me in a bad light. I'm sure your super tuff. I'm sure you would destroy me unless the seal & combat training kicked in. Then perhaps i would stand a chance. Either way, there is no need to pound your keyboard chest like you are responding to ball coach. You go way overboard on him as well btw.

You jumped to several conclusions... some u jumped to even after i spelled things out for you. Others you made assumptions on.

I never said there were players complaining behind the scenes. Never once did i indicate that as a source or reason for my conclusions. It's probably safe to assume there are. Fairly natural given the situation. But i referred to none of that.

I merely stated an interesting observation on one particular players reaction, who from a talent standpoint, Liberty would be extremely fortunate to get. The comment regarding he kmows players in the program was directed at him knowing the quality of the program... not him hearing complaints.

You keep falling back on, "well sorry he didn't think your son was good enough to recruit". Wrong conclusiom. Not the case at all. My son was strung along so that he had to pass on other opportunities as the staff continued to drag him along. The #1 recruit line (positionally) was used. The we will call you on Monday with the final decision. The don't commit anywhere else until we speak. The Monday calls would turn into 3 weeks later... when you had already told other coaches you would have a decision in a few days. The straight forward communication from a recruit that says... "i can't waste anymore time, if you are not interested let me move on"... always drug on. A high school recruit has a very small window to research and vet potential landing spots. All other schools, regardless of level, respected his time as a potential recruit. My alma mater, used his time, then gave him a line that they could have given him 6 months earlier (which was basically, we can't make a call until we know if player x is using his last year of eligibility) and allowed him to move on.

You like to say the... "hey, this is the story all across the ncaa landscape". That's your go to? That's like saying, "it's nothing personal, it's just business" should be the go to whenever a christian business person makes a shady deal. I call cowplop. I also mentioned the uncanny correlatiom we found between successful programs and how they trrated you in the process.

You like to say you are going off your one personal experience. No, incorrect. I told you when the hire was made, i was given red flaggs by former competitors on the other side of the field. Nothing personal. Nothing integrity wise. I am sure he is a fine man. I've actually sat in conversation with his best friend, whom i know to be a high quality human being. So i am not taking character shots. I am convinced he is a good guy.

I am saying there is not a long record of actuall success. You shrugged off my Rick Reeves example... your rebuttle was, "he rose to the top of a stack of quality candidates". Well so did Mel H and the awful selection of Ken Karcher. His career numbers parallel that of Rick Reeves right now. It's not meant to be a shot personallyat Rick Reeves.. or Mel H... or Ken Karcher (but he was truly awful).

It also isn't a personal shot at Kelly F., but i will scream it from the rooftop that how recruits, potential recruits, etc are treated is foundational for great sovcer programs. We did not see that with Liberty. It doesn't mean they meant to be, or are shady etc. It does mean that there was a clear difference between both staffs and top programs at all levels. The only reason my son stuck with them was his great desire to be there. Like I told you... Liberty was well down my list. Unfortunately, my son saw Liberty as the perfect fit for him.

Other schools, you knew right where you stood in real time. Not Liberty.

Throwing the "whole program" under the bus? You make that sound like it's some large company or institutiom. Liberty Men's Soccer is 3 people... that is the program, plus players and support staff. But those 3 people set the pace. It's not like throwing the whole school under the bus because of Junior (however Junior doesn't seem to take into account the entirety of the Liberty family everytime he tweets).

Bottom line. Your friend won't have the success he wants, if our experience is the norm. Those experience impact pockets of people that ultimately can impact his program.

Want examples? Our son ended up at a program whose suvcess is almost unparalleled in sports. The coaching tree that has grown out of the program has it's roots everywhere. Their reputatiom is such that players who went to other institutions wish they could have gone there... and recommend them over their alma maters. Their former players, who are elsewhere coaching, will tell you, "We would love you... but if you can go there, go there."

There are 8 or 9 players on my sons team that have national team appearances. That's not to brag... but it is to qualify the sphere of influence we reside in. If Liberty was recruiting one of them, they will naturally ask us our thoughts. They have all seen me in my Liberty gear. What do you think I am going to say? Do you know how important hearing these experiences were in my sons decision? He literally said no to full rides (not very common in soccer) to be apart of it. I also coach high school (no big deal... but u do interact with top players outside the DA in your half of the state) and pretty much every youth in our family are collegiate athletes of some sport (my two nieces actuall compete against Liberty for two different ASun schools. In other words... i am not some Dad screaming on the sidelines of your local FC Rustburg clash on Sunday afternoon.

Bottom line. If you want your friend to ultimately win... it starts with the experience that everyone has with his program. Perhaps we were the exception... perhaps. But if we are not... expect more 4-1 losses to UMBC, 3 nil drops at NJIT, home losses to IW, and dog fights agaimst that year in year out power known as VMI.
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585848
Alabama - Yes, i was in 5/2. In my time, we had at least one avid Bama guy. Jonathan Pitts was his name. Nice guy who was Bama all the way.
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By Purple Haize
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#585857
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 9th, 2019, 8:58 am This all just sounds like a parent who has a bad taste in his mouth from his kid's recruiting process.
That’s what I’m gathering. He misquoted me a lot but that’s fine. I understand emotions when it comes to people’s kids and athletics
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By thepostman
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#585858
The recruiting process, regardless of sport, has got to be an emotional one at times. So I can understand it but pulling this kind of stunt doesn't help anybody and I don't understand this approach.
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585859
Jonathan - Not entirely correct. As stated above... I posted my concerns from the moment of the announcement, which had zero to do with any personal experience at that time. It had simply to do with what I was being told from those who competed against his programs in the past (nothing to do with personal emotions). You can look back in the history of this thread and see that. Also, there is way more analytical analysis listed above then just the recruiting process (admittedly, that is at the heart of my conclusion).

Take out the 3 seasons a decade ago at Davidson and you have a coach with a well below 500 record (nothing to do with personal emotions). The evidence presented so far this season in results support that this trend will continue (way too early to draw ultimate conclusions... but he did not take over a program at the bottom of the pond... again evidence that has nothing to do with personal emotions).

As stated before... I did not wish for my kid to end up at Liberty. Would have been very happy to have moved on from them a long time ago and focus elsewhere. I also stated that the process left me bitter toward a school that I loved. I do not deny that (this is impacted by personal emotions). I acknowledge that and place it within the context of the whole picture. Dealt with many, many, other programs. I've stated my observations from those dealings (those observations and experiences are separate from Liberty... I could have made these conclusions without ever coming into contact with Liberty).

My point is, that it all starts with the recruiting process and perhaps the lack of results both in the past and present are being impacted by what we saw first hand. Programs that we saw handle that process well from start to finish had successful programs. You can do whatever you would like with that information... but my synopsis was not simply from a bad taste in my mouth. That is simply what got me to piece things together.

Purple had asked if I would share my frustrations with the program. I let that sit for awhile because I know how it would appear. I knew I would get broad comments just like this and the one from Purple ("oh your son wasn't good enough... etc."). I am not going to go back and forth on this much more (if at all). All companies, programs, etc should be looking for real life feedback. Sometimes that feedback is hard. I run a $45 million dollar per year company. It would be easy to just continue to let the profits roll in and rest on our past for a bit. We could lose customers and not even know it for a period of time. We don't rest on that however. When we lose a customer...we want to know why. When someone has a critique of our services, interactions, product, etc... we want to know what that is. It may be something we can live with or can't fix... but it also may be something that gives us pause or could help us gain the next customer we really want.

If we are not the exception... but what most experience going thru the process with this program (and no... I have no other experience of that other then my own) then this will hold the program back from ever gaining consistent success. Liberty is an extremely unique place. It has a ton going for it... but there are several very strong headwinds moving against it as well.
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By Purple Haize
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#585860
Please show me where I ever said your son was not good enough
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585861
Purple - My apologies if I misquoted or misinterpreted anything you said. Typing that long of a post on a phone isn't the best way to easily look back and make sure I got everything word for word. So if I was off in anyway please accept my apologies. Like I said... I hesitated to divulge into my ultimate conclusions. In some ways... it's not worth it. But I am very passionate about how people are treated. Yep, when it's your kid it is much more personal. But believe it or not... I wouldn't want any other kid to have as negative of an experience as we did with a program at Liberty. I don't buy the line... "it's the ncaa". I don't, because again, this experience was unique to one program. I can list several programs where the answer was eventually yes... or no... or maybe... or whatever and they all handled that process in a way that you left positive about their program. Everyone can mock all they would like. I have some pretty thick skin. I have stated multiple times that we could be the exception. But if you are looking for another coach in a couple of years (because no coach is going to survive long at Liberty any more if they aren't well above 500 imo) this part of the process could be at the root.
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585862
Purple - It was the line that stated "I get that you are bitter that Kelly ain’t apparently recruit your son". Yep, that doesn't specifically state what I included in my response. But I did basically take it that way.
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By Purple Haize
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#585863
47/5-2 wrote: October 9th, 2019, 10:06 am Purple - It was the line that stated "I get that you are bitter that Kelly ain’t apparently recruit your son". Yep, that doesn't specifically state what I included in my response. But I did basically take it that way.
Reread my posts. I said quite the opposite. I also said this happens at other LU programs too because it does. You keep wanting LU soccer to be something it cannot be at this point. You keep talking about all of these other programs with history and pedigree then blame Kelly, who hasn’t even been here a year, for that short coming. You also mischaracterize where he has coached but that’s fine. I’m sure it’s an over sight on your part.
I did pass over the Rick Reeves comparison because it’s not applicable
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585865
Purple - You're correct. I typed Davidson, instead of Butler. Those two schools are similar in my head (may not be in real life... but Heyward and Curry did that to me). I know it happens at other programs.. again, those programs don't win (and Kelly's programs have not won... minus a 3 year stretch). I'm going to drop the subject for now. Obviously, it's not worth it and neither of us are going to be able to be completely objective. I'm not interested in dragging, who is by all accounts a good dude. But in a couple of years, I believe Liberty will be making staff changes to the program again... and most likely, there will have been about 5 posts in the soccer program between now and then! Wish that would change... it's a wonderful game.

Can we agree that Ken Karcher was an absolute horrible hire and that the twins and Elaina made Reeves a career? Can we agree on that Purple! Also, be kinder to ballcoach.
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By flamesfilmguy
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#585869
Wow. This has been a fun morning read. Just my 2 cents. not that 47 or purple care about it, As someone who has watched the recruiting process at multiple schools in multiple sports, This isn't new. Coaches, Whether intentionally or unintentionally will treat recruits badly by dragging them along. It happens every year at every place I've been. With sports like soccer, lacrosse and baseball this is magnified because of the whole partial scholarship thing. Soccer has 9.9 Baseball has 11.7 and Lacrosse has 12.6 (correct me if I'm wrong i'm a little rusty on some of those sports limits.) Almost no one gives out full scholly's in those sports any more and it causes the coaches to have to play a numbers game which ends up making at least a few recruits either hung out to dry or left unsatisfied or slighted by offers. Add in the factor of professional drafts having kids leave early and then basic attrition it is a mine field of different problems that can arise when recruiting and setting a full roster. Is it right that coaches do this? probably not. If you know you are only stinging along a kid because another kid higher on your recruiting board is a maybe or a soft commit, its really easy to just keep the kid lower on the board strung along as a safety net. its one of the reasons I'll never be a college coach. There are so many variables to recruiting and even good men who I've respected and worked for have ended up doing someone wrong in the recruiting process. Your son or family member was smart and realized he was strung along. Others aren't so lucky. Its why Juco baseball is so big. I'm not trying to defend any coaches treatment of recruits. Just trying to give you another perspective. And I know it can be hard to see it from another perspective when its your kid. but he's not alone. and he seems to be doing well. Forgiveness is a beautiful thing. just my 2 cents.
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By 47/5-2
Posts
#585870
flamesfilmguy - You are right on. You are also very correct in the underfunding of programs make recruiting in those sports much more difficult on the men's side of things. Another thing most folks don't really realize that makes a sport like soccer in particular more unique is the amount of international players. Obviously, if you are involved in the world of soccer you know how many kids around the world utilize our system. What many don't realize is the huge advantages the internationals often have over an American player. It isn't just about skill... they have an economic advantage over American players as well in your underfunded sports. Coaches don't have to come up with money for many of them (or not full amounts) because they are coming with their own governments money. Thanks for your reply. You are correct about the last line as well. There is also some truth to fool me once, etc. Again my main point is that there is a correlation between success and handling this tricky process well from what I have seen.
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By Purple Haize
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#585879
1- Reeves success was partially due to those players but IMO the smoking hot assistant coach had a lot to do with it
2- I’m not sure Karcher has the personality to be a college coach
3- ballcoach gets as much respect as deserves
By 47/5-2
Posts
#585882
Wiley??? If so, I would tend to agree. Her brother was a lot of fun to talk basketball with, and I know she has had a lot of success post Liberty. If it is one of the others... my memory is drawing a blank but I will take your word. I have zero against Reeves. I just think he cashed out on that class knowing he would have a hard time duplicating that success again (and he really hasn't). I don't know ballcoach… but I do know that it is virtually impossible to influence someone for the better if they don't believe you like them.
By 47/5-2
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#585883
And Karcher… you are dead right about the personality. Probably the hardest coach to like during my time period. From day 1, he was not the right fit.
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By Purple Haize
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#585888
47/5-2 wrote: October 9th, 2019, 2:33 pm Wiley??? If so, I would tend to agree. Her brother was a lot of fun to talk basketball with, and I know she has had a lot of success post Liberty. If it is one of the others... my memory is drawing a blank but I will take your word. I have zero against Reeves. I just think he cashed out on that class knowing he would have a hard time duplicating that success again (and he really hasn't). I don't know ballcoach… but I do know that it is virtually impossible to influence someone for the better if they don't believe you like them.
Haha. No. Not Jeri although her hubby always reminds me of Hootie/Darius Rucker!
ballcoach is set in his way. And is afforded all the respect he deserves. Unlike others I don’t have him on Foe. I enjoy his inane ramblings
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By alabama24
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#585893
47/5-2 wrote: October 8th, 2019, 11:26 pm Alabama - Yes, i was in 5/2. In my time, we had at least one avid Bama guy. Jonathan Pitts was his name. Nice guy who was Bama all the way.
I was on 5-2 my freshman year (fall 94, spring 95).

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